Just to interject, Moses was not literally with Jesus. No one had yet ascended to heaven at that time. ("Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man." John 3:13) The transformation was a vision, a prophetic event. The transfiguration helped to strengthen the faith of the apostles that were present and who would play a leading role in the Christian congregation. This is probably for another conversation. Those that have died before the ransom of Jesus will be resurrected because they have paid for their sins with death. (Acts 24:15 and Romans 6:23) Those that are righteous will have their name in the scroll of life. Those that were unrighteous will have their name written on the scroll of life only if they act in harmony with the “things written in the scrolls” of instructions opened during the 1,000 year reign of Christ. (Revelation 20:11-15) This is also a bit off topic.
No man had ascended up to heaven until Christ ascended, which literally would mean that no man had ever climbed up into heaven by his own power as Christ had done. Elijah, however, was taken up into heaven. He did not die, so if all are condemned and had to die before Jesus ascended, how do you explain Elijah?
That is true “The heavens” to which Elijah ascended in 2 Kings 2:11 were not the heavens where God resides but the atmosphere. (See Psalm 78:26 and Matthew 6:26) The fiery chariot evidently transferred Elijah to another part of the earth, where he continued living for a time. Years later Elijah wrote a letter to Jehoram, the king of Judah.—2*Chronicles 21:1, 12-15.
I disagree, SeekTruth! Now, I'm no Bible scholar, but I've NEVER heard anyone teach that. It has always been that Elijah was taken away permanently. I've looked it over and compared to the timelines of the kings, and I think the letter was written before he was taken up. In the first chapter of 2nd Kings, King Ahaziah send for Elijah, who tell him he's going to die, which happens. then, in verse 17 it says, "Because Ahaziah had no son, Joram succeeded him as king in the second year of Jehoram son of Johoshaphat king of Judah." Then Chapter 2 talks about Elijah being taken up into heaven. We can assume that SOMETIME during the reign of Jehoram in Judah, and Joram in Israel. So when we get to 2nd Chronicles 21, Jehoram is king. There is nothing to indicate it happened AFTER Elijah was taken up, especially since there really isn't any indication when during Jehoram's reign it happened.
Now I did a historical study not that long ago on Jonah and something came up that few people realize. It was a tradition at that time that the emerging king reigned with the departing king for a time, often quite a few years, and in historical writings either one was referenced and was still accurate. You can read about this in many places: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehoram_of_Judah This is an excerpt from my study: Now, we cannot know what year Jonah went to Nineveh, but there is reference to Jeroboam II reigning in Israel during that time. Again this brings up some speculation on the exact years and, to add to the confusion, part of Jeroboam's reign was shared with another, but generally his reign was from 793 BC to 753 BC. So this reference to the letter he wrote does not prove that Elijah was transported and still lived on the earth.
oh heavens. (tongue in cheek) I don't think that we know nitty gritty stuff like where exactly anyone is or was. I believe that God and "heaven" are outside of time, not limited by it. So I also believe that Elijah, Moses and the thief on the cross are IN heaven and that all of the saints. (hopefully me too) are IN heaven right now, previously and in the future. because the realm exists outside of our understanding of time. SO Moses could have been THERE on the mountain. very frustrating to have inexact words translated into other inexact words but if we cannot be exact I believe that it doesn't MATTER. not our business. I think God thought of "unfair" before we did....and as he is a perfect God of Justice, I am expecting that he has a plan for it.
Goodnsimple, you sound like me, lol!!! When people ask how God can "send the person in Africa who never heard about him to hell", my response is: Do you believe that God is just? Yes. Then, even though it may not seem "fair" to me, I have to believe that God will not send a person to hell unjustly. And that's the bottom line! I've also told that same person that really it DOESN'T MATTER. Said person is NOT "in Africa", and HAS heard the Gospel message, and so when he stands before God, he can't use that argument to justify his own unbelief, because usually that line is nothing more than excuse to keep one from accepting God's grace.
Yep! It is like a real life group conversation. Just look at the totally unrelated post you made! Although I have heard the real estate there is probably "over the top" as to how much anyone should prosper, so may it does work...?
Question: Say someone passes away, (I've thought about this regarding a family member who did pass away) they went through life being quite sinful and didn't believe in God. Do you feel if others pray for them they will go to heaven or go hell?
In line with this, I've always been told that each individual will be judged according to how MUCH access he had to the gospel, and his ability to understand what he had access to. One who has only had the testimony of Creation, will be judged according to that knowledge, while one who has lived (for example) in the US and has had unlimited access to the gospel but has chosen to reject it, will be judged according to that. Also, a person with limited mental ability would be judged differently than one with average or high mental ability. Maybe I've been told wrongly, but we just have to trust that God will judge justly.
I believe that once they're dead, that's it, and they stand before God however they were when they died. It's sad, but that's how my dad went, "just fine" because he "never killed anybody." I don't believe you can pray somebody into heaven if they have rejected the gospel.
I agree with Lindina. We are responsible for OUR OWN decision. No one can make it for us. That is true both BEFORE and AFTER death.
The only thing that matters at the time of death is if you have received Christ as your personal savior. Without accepting Christ on your own...you are not saved and will not be able to enter Heaven. We cannot pray someone into heaven...but we can pray them into having a heart ready to receive Christ. I have prayed for the salvation of family and friends. However, praying for their salvation is not praying they will go to heaven but come to a saving knowledge of Christ. Basically...you need to make the choice...no one can make it for you.
Everyone was praying that this family member would hear the word of God when she was in a coma before she passed away. She was in a Catholic hospital so I asked that a priest come in and pray over her and my hope and prayers would be that she would hear him and let God into her heart. We werent praying for her to be let into heaven.
There have been times when prayer, fasting, and repentance has "changed God's mind" although I think it was more like He gave a warning and the people changed their hearts, so the warning did not need to be carried out--kind of like a parent kind of thing. However, the relationship with God needs to be a personal one from my viewpoint. I believe in the power of intercessory prayer, but not in the way that one can intercede for another who has passed on. Someone once told me that God would not force someone to be with Him in the afterlife if he used his free will choice to reject God in this life. I thought it was a very interesting point. I have a few Catholic friends who would differ on this opinion most likely and that would be a very interesting theology to explore.
This person went through life rejecting God and carried on very sinful ways, drinking, cheating, etc. She actually died of liver failure due to the drinking. She was quite unhappy in her life and made sure that she made a diligent attempt to make others miserable right along with her.
She was in a coma. While I would say she wasn't saved before going into it, I honestly can't say what happened in the coma. I believe that, while in a coma, there is a consciousness. And it is possible that God spoke to her during that time and she responded to His love. I honestly can't say.
Very sad. On the other hand, praying for the unattainable is often why we pray, so I see no harm in it.
Her last words about a week before she went into the coma were, "I know you think I am an alcoholic, but I'm not, what I have, you are going to get". How sad, even knowing that she was dying, she allowed ugly words to leave her lips. :cry:She forgot that I would need to be one who consumes alcohol in order to become an alcoholic.
