<EDIT by Amanda> This is a continuation of the Timelines thread: http://www.homeschoolspot.com/viewtopic.php?t=6230 I could only split the posts, so I hope this is good enough. </EDIT by Amanda> Brooke ... I'm just curious if your comment about the extinction of dinosaurs proceeds from the assumption that all extinction must be caused by mankind ??? You did post your ideas "for those who might not research the above-mentioned questions." I have studied these issues, though As Tina mentioned somewhere previous in this thread, quite likely God ended their life because they had served their purpose ... likely as mowers LOL. There were countless millenia in the six creative "days"; the fifth of which was when "the flying creatures" and "great sea monsters" of Genesis were created. We might conclude that the carnivores preyed upon the herbivores, who took care of the vegetation of the time, proving His wisdom and order in all things. We can be sure He created them for a purpose, even if we don't fully understand that purpose right now. :?: :shock: As for leviathan and behemoth, there is no indication that those references are to dinosaurs. Many Bible translators have rendered these to be crocodiles and hippos respectively. The scriptural descriptions of these creatures certainly would fit those renderings. Hard to believe that a hippo can be 14 ft long and weigh about 8,000 pounds ... behemoth for sure !!! Also the passage at Job 41: 1-8 speaks of actions of a man with leviathan. Things like trading over it, making it a plaything, holding down its tongue with a rope, etc. It's unlikely that leviathan was a dinosaur ... they did NOT exist with man or so it is commonly viewed. They appear very suddenly in the fossil record with no links to any fossil ancestors, and disappear just as abruptly without leaving connecting fossil links. In keeping with the thought that leviathan is a crocodile, In Job 41:18 it says "its eyes are like beams of dawn." Perhaps Job heard many stories, since the Nile was full of crocodiles and his location was near the Gulf of Aqaba. In any case, it's interesting that the Egyptians adopted the crocodile's eyes as the symbol of morning. Not likely a coincidence. I, too, am awed by the inspired record. It is very interesting to find that history and science have many tidbits which are in agreement with the Biblical account, for those who doubt. Kathe
Why do you assume there are "countless millenia" in the days of creation? The word used is the exact one used when Joshua marched around Jericho, yet we don't assume Joshua marched for millenia. Kathe, I don't mean to get into a big argument, but I'd prefer to trust God's word over humanistic scientists. If we can't trust what He says in Genesis, then we can't trust what He says throughout the whole Bible.
Hey girls...... Ohhhh, I just love these type of discussions :lol: Yes, Kathe that is my understanding of the words Leviathan and Behemoth... crocodile and hippo. As you pointed out, that would agree with part of the fossil record that shows man and HUGE dinosaur did not exist together.. Again, we have to believe that what God wanted on the earth today, what Noah had in the ark...There has never been any discovery of TRex and man together. No human has ever saw a dinosaur...Still we don't know when they died off, but we know they are not here today.. As far as the length of creative days, Jackie,the Bible answers its own question. I agree we don't need humanistic views, however, * Days* can mean different lengths of period. If you applied what you said about the march around Jericho, one literal 24 hour day, to the creative days, it would be in error. The reason is because God's command to Adam and Eve said *in the very DAY of your eating* from it( the tree that was off limits), you will die. Even the Serpent quoted God's command laid upon the first human couple if they disobeyed him, somewhere around Genesis 2:4,5 or 6.. Did Adam die in that literal 24 day? Absolutely not, or we wouldn't be here :lol: :wink: However, he did die at the age of 930 years.....This is well within the time period of 1,000 years though. The other Bible principle stating that *one day with God is like a thousand years*... This would be much more reasonable... Several times in the Bible, Bible writers use the word *day* to refer to 24 hour period, thousand years and life spans.. An example of life span is in the Bible where it say our time now that we live in will be like *Noah's day* prior to the flood. Certainly not one literal 24 day, but in a lifespan..there were 1656 years from Adam to the Flood in Noah's time.. So *milleniums* would be more accurate....... We have to remember that we are not talking about the creation the actual earth and heavens..The Bible gives proof that was already here in Gen: 1:1. ". In the beginning,.God created the heavens and earth"......We don't know when it began and ended, or how many untold years was in there before he started the process of making the earth suitable for man. This would support scientists dating the earth to some untold billions of year possible. This all goes back to the WHY of creating the animals....Everything God did we all know was for a purpose, including the dinosaurs...The purpose we know was the love he had for us, and making us the perfect home.. Something else to consider in the length of those days is that God did not close the 7th day...Every other day had a *beginning and end* and it was good..but the 7th day only had a beginning.. We are still living, thousands of years later in that 7th day brought out in Genesis that has not been closed yet. It has not been commanded good, because obviously we all know the earth is not full of peaceful people... Some Bible commentators sugges that just as God has taught us how to number our days that the "eventful week" of creative days and the 7th day to rest on should be of equal length just as our weeks are.....interesting thought.. Thats my 2 cents!!! :wink:
Tina, you are arguing the ENGLISH word DAY. There are more than one words that are interpreted as "day". One means a literal 24-hour period, one means something like "in the time of...." (such as "in the day of...."), etc. I remember one way they determined a 24-hour day had to do with words surrounding it, such as "morning", "evening", etc. The original translators interpreted it as a 24-hour period, and it was understood as such until the scientists decided they knew better than God did. I seriously doubt there are gigantic t-rexs around today, but I'm hesitant to say there are no dinosaurs alive. We do think of gigantic monsters, but many of the dinosaurs were much smaller. I think that there were dinosaurs on the Ark (at least smaller ones!), and perhaps they are still alive. It would make sense that after the flood the dinosaurs, like people, didn't live as long and were therefor smaller. And there ARE accounts of people having seen dinosaurs. I also have read the Job descriptions, and don't believe they are hippos or crocodiles. The beasts described are much more than that. (Maybe we should move this to a different thread, so those we can continue with the Ancients without getting it to sidetracked.....?)
I haven't checked to see if anyone made a new thread cuz I just can't contain myself. Ever wonder why Hippos have such tiny little tails for such a heavy creature? I am beginning to think it is so that when we look at Job there is no mistaking the fact that behemoth is NOT a hippo! Behemoth has a tail that swings like a cedar! :shock: Also, I stated earlier that NOTHING died before Adam sinned. "By one man did sin enter into the world, and death by sin." I don't claim to be a Bible scholar, but I do read it all the time and research the Hebrew and Greek, as Jackie must as well. To get back to our history discussion, those of you interested in MOH might like to know that it goes along with the "young earth" model of creation and gives wonderful, scientific proof including the Ice Age and so on. I have nothing against science. God is the inventor of science and perfect science must support or discover truth, but never creates truth. And much like Job, we don't know squat about the perfect design of creation which is exactly why God took Job on a wild ride to the ends of the earth to see just what God's creation entailed. What I do know for certain is that God's Word was written exactly how He wanted it and I have no reason to think that the 7 days of creation are a metaphor. I have no reason to believe that God would create "dinosaurs" to be used as lawn mowers only to intentionally destroy them after they did His mowing for Him--He can just make grass short if he wants to, or let it go to seed! Sheesh! And once again, the point I will die on is that NOTHING died prior to Adam's sin. Every created being was a vegetarian. I also don't see how a person can take Genesis 1:1 and make it out like there was grass and creatures and so forth before he got started with "the 7 days". It says that the earth was without form and void. Then the Spirit moved on the face of the waters and the creation of the planet earth was begun. It would appear that elements for the creation of sustainable life were present (at least the presence of hydrogen and oxygen are mentioned) and then God ordered them into a perfectly functioning creation of galaxies, solar systems, earth and life therein. I am really disturbed by the route this discussion is going. You either believe everything God says in His perfect word or you have no basis for unwaivering faith and may blow like the chaf in the wind. We are warned to be aware, especially during the last days, of people telling us they know the truth when, in fact, they don't! Please be aware of this when reading Bible commentaries and the like. Those commentaries are written by men, not God.
Brooke...... I'm sorry you find this discussion disturbing...That certainly is not my intention...Quite the opposite, I'm not a person that enjoys controversy.....especially among *friends* I do enjoy this VERY much It is very edifying.......... However, all of the parts of the Bible have to make internal harmony. There is no evidence or line or reasoning to suggest that the earth was created in a literal 24 hour day. Yes, God is Supreme, Majestic, AweSpiring, Abundant Energy, Love and there is no possible way to list the infinite words to describe him. It does not add up to being a literal 24 hours. Adam and Eve would have been put to death that moment if God's "day" meant the same as our literal 24 hour day. Again, he lived 930 years. What did God mean when he said *in the day of your eating from it, you will die"...He did die within that 1,000 years.. Isn't more reasonable to apply the principle found at 2Peter 3:8 "...let this one fact not escape your notice that one day..is with God as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day*.... Adams death of dying in one day has to be reconciled with God's length of day. I did not say that the earth had grass and was suited for man living when it was made...you are correct when it says it was without form , waste, it was void. It simply was made. But it was here for an untold number of years as brought out by Genesis 1:1, and then *whipped into shape* with the 6 creative days for man's existence. It is not a young earth........that is the problem scientist have with a lot of creationist (as if we cared :roll: ).......scientist have evidence that shows the millions and even billions of years the earth possibly is....This does harmonize with God's word where it says *In the beginning.....* We don't know how long that was...... The creation of man is young if thats what you meant...... It is not such a far fetched idea to believe that God used the dinosaurs to tame part of the earth with its tropical luxuriant foliage...It was just thought, not gospel. :wink: The Hebrew word behe·mah´ (beast; domestic animal) that is understood to denote “great beast” or “huge beast.” In the Greek Septuagint the word the·ri´a (wild beasts) translates the Hebrew behe·mohth´. Evidently, though, a single animal is meant, as is indicated by the fact that the description given of Behemoth is not that of several creatures but of only one, generally considered to be the hippopotamus (Hippopotamus amphibius). In fact, a number of Bible translations (AT, La, Ro, NW, JB, RS) use the word “hippopotamus” in the main text or in footnotes to identify the creature referred to by God. These Bible commentaries were commenting on Bible translations, not their view.... If this is not your view or understanding, we are big girls :lol: , so we won't have any falling out over such things.. :lol: WE ALL rise to new heights of inspiration.......and our intellect, oh who can rise to it? :lol: :lol:
Tina ... Thanks for jumping in there. I've been gone all day and evening, so I'm just seeing the continuing conversation now. Brooke ... There's no need to restate former comments as though they were ignored. I totally GOT what you said about nothing dying before Adam ... I just don't agree. That's why I stated my beliefs on the issue, as has Tina. Since you have been free to post a rebuttal, just allow me to say that there's also no need to assume only you and Jackie study the Hebrew and Greek ... are little digs like that really necessary? I'm very familiar with the Hebrew word "yohm" for example, which is translated "day" and is used to indicate different lengths of time in the Genesis account and elsewhere in the Hebrew scriptures. You're free to disagree on the renderings of leviathan and behemoth. I'll just reiterate what Tina said ... we're all big girls here. Comments that assert some of us don't accept God's word in its entirety are inappropriate and take the conversation down to a level that is unbecoming, given the nature of the topics being discussed. Your post that I replied to did say "for those who might not research" and, well, some of us DO. Personally, I'm not compelled to lecture others when their beliefs differ from mine. Tina ... Forgot to give you a big high-five. Glad you were online today cuz I was gone all day, and then the meeting this evening. I'm off to snoozy land. It's the only way I'm going to get warm. It must be -3 degrees C out there :shock: Kathe
Hi, Tina! I love ya, girl. I'm just gonna have to agree to disagree on this one, as I'm sure that each person here has a belief on this topic (young/old earth, etc.) and are able to back their line of thinking with research and reasoning. One thing I will add (for anyone) is that we need to look at the source of our information. Carbon dating is just not reliable (proven time and time again to be bogus) and some fossilization didn't occur over millions of years with standard pressure, it occured with catastrophic pressure like the great flood. Just some more thoughts to ponder. There is a wealth of information from creationists and Christian researchers to support a young earth, and quite honestly I've never looked deeply into other theories just because they go against my grain. This has had me kinda riled up today. I try not to let disagreements get to me that much--at least not anymore :wink: . If nothing else, it's been good for the Lord to expose this area of my personality that evidentally hasn't been given the victory quite yet. I'm learning, though. But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. That is the goal, is it not? Ahhhhh.....easy to be intreated....yeah, that one looks like it might need a little fine tuning here :lol: .
Ah......I just dare any evolutionist try to *butt in* this thread :lol: I should say I wouldn't mind that either, I respect each opinion and furthermore value it........ Brookyyyy girl, I know you are passionate :wink: As I always say I would rather speak with an opionated,passionate, dedicated person than a mindless blah.... I'm not a *rile up easy person*. .....What I don't like doing is attacking personal beliefs......I do enjoy pondering, and *try to go down that road* with that line of reasoning type of gal........ I like to keep my mind open, you do too...... Thats why I try to go down that road with the 24 hour day...I start asking myself things like is it reasonable to believe that Adam and TRexes resided together? They both were created in the same day...the land animals early in the day, then Adam. What did Adam understand God's meaning of day since he spent evenings with God? Questions for pondering. You know I never have come across scripture that applies Rom 5:12 to animals. Its applied to man, but the animals were passed over when God made his denunciation.I know his view of animals and man is different. What is *young* to some people? Christians don't have to be offended one way or another over the age of the earth.......truth is, and I know we will both agree on this: We just don't know the age. Thats why I have never felt inclined to believe that: I won't make a positive statement that it is young. Kathe, you are too much...... :lol: You know me, I never pass up a good Bible discussion...... Okay, well except if I don't have time for it. Then there are times when *iron sharpens iron*.......Lets hope so anyway :lol: Oh well, I guess we have had the number 1 spot on this thread for the last 2 days, think everyone got our points?
You know, as this part of this thread got going, I realized I didn't exactly know WHAT I believed about the details of dinosaurs! I found an interesting book---it's kind of colorbook size, from Amazing Facts. Have you heard of them? My husband had this book, and showed it to me. It's very interesting! It talks about a lot of the things you guys are talking about. The guy that wrote it is a creationist, and uses Bible texts to support what he says. He happens to believe in the earth being without form and void, then 6000 years ago God came and made our world capable of supporting life during 7 literal days of creation. The way he says it is that Moses (the writer) repeatedly wrote"and the evening and the morning were the ____ day." He goes on to say that God made the vegetation on the 3rd day, and the sun on the 4th day---the vegetation could not survive for a thousand years with no sun around, so those days were "literal 24-hour days." Another thing he says about it: "Jesus lived in the Jewish culture, and every Jewish synagogue in the world taught THE LAW, the first five books of the Tanakh. Nobody argued with the story of Genesis and the written account of the 7 literal days of creation. Every Jew KNOWS that God created Adam and Eve on the 6th day, and that meant Jesus knew it too. If that straight forward story was not true, then God would be a liar for permitting it to be included in scripture and passed on down the centuries to BILLIONS of believers..." He also talks about the tail of the behemoth. (from Job 40:15-24).They have found sauropod bones, the largest one was 150 feet long! He says neither a hippopotamus nor an elephant have "cedar-like" tails (Job 40:17), but sauropods do! Job is talking about those, in the post-flood world, so that means behemoths/sauropods went on Noah's ark (baby ones certainly!) and survived the flood! He also makes comments about the Leviathan, which he feels is the T-Rex for many reasons... (I'm tired and it's too long to go into right now. I'll write it later, though, if anyone's interested.) He talked about people and animals being larger then than they are now, and the "water canopy" above the earth before the flood. The "water canopy" put more pressure down upon the atmosphere of our earth. The benefit of this was that the life functions of both man and the animals were affected. The extra pressure caused the blood cells in all the animals and people to function more efficiently, thus "ginatism" could flourish. It's kind of like a hyperbolic chamber, which increase air pressure, and whe a person is placed inside one, their body begins to do an exxcellent job oftransferring oxygen and removing waste products from the body, which means that on the cellular level, the body functions healthier and better. Before the flood, with the greater preassure of our atmosphere and the better nutrient quality in the food they ate, huge dinosaurs and giant man had great metabolisms. But after the flood the canopy was gone. At that time nearly all mankind and the animals decreased in size and stature, down to a smaller size that their weakened metabolisms could handle. WOW, all this is very interesting! I have my beliefs, but I certainly enjoy hearing others! Thanks all for sharing all this!
BTW, I meant "giantism" NOT ginatism! Also, most of what I wrote in the previous message was quoted from that book I was talking about, though I didn't always get the quote marks in. Here's the book info.: A Creationist's View ofDinosaurs and the Theory of Evolution By Jim Pinkoski Copyrighted 1997 A Special Publication from Amazing Facts Their web address is www.amazingfacts.org Okay, NOW I can go to bed!!! :lol:
I asked Amanda if she could transfer us to another thread. I really feel that the TIMELINE topic hadn't played out, and I don't want it to go off on this tangent. However, I also don't want this one to "stop". Hope that's OK with y'all...... What Deena said so much better than I (thank you Deena!) is that the word "day" IN THE CONTEXT OF GENESIS ONE had always meant a 24-hour day until the scientists decided otherwise. These were NOT Christian men for the most part, nor did they consider the Bible the inspired Word of God, but just a combination of history./myths. Yet it has been pushed on us so hard that we more than willingly accept human "wisdom" over God's wisdom. Kathe, NO ONE is saying you're not spiritual or anything!!! I think all of us have been together long enough that we have a deep respect for one another's beliefs, even when we don't agree. And I'm sure that when EACH of us stand before God, He will amaze us with how little ALL of us really understand! And NO, I have not studied Hebrew, etc., but I have read up on this topic. As Deena stated, the word DAY in its context talks about "evening and morning". EVERY OTHER TIME there is any reference to "morning", "evening", "night", etc. it is interpreted as a 24-hour period. This is the ONE exception, and it wasn't an exception until science told us it needed to be an exception. Tina, you say you ask yourself if it's "reasonable". That's using YOUR reasoning. How reasonable was it for Moses to lead the people into the Red Sea? Or for Joshua to destroy a city by marching around it? How do you think the people responded to those "reasonable" requests? God is going to do things HIS way, not our way! He is more than capable to create in seven days. Dating methods are all based on the assumption that the earth is old. There's a lot of circular logic....."These fossils must be ten zillion years old, because they were found with these rocks that are ten zillion years old. We know those rocks are ten zillion years old because they were found with the ten zillion year old fossils, that we know are ten zillion years old because of the ten zillion year old rocks....." Mount St. Helen's erupting showed them how wrong they were...in a matter of minutes, things happened that could only have happened in "billions" of years! Got to go! DH has his coat on and is getting impatient with me!
Kathe, I'm glad that our last posts were being written at the same time. Had I read your reply to me it woulda put me in another funk and my message for Tina woulda been all botched up. You made some assumptions about my previous post that are entirely inaccurate. Formost, I didn't reiterate my stand because I thought you or anyone else didn't get it. I reiterate for my own purposes so that each post is consice and could stand alone on the issue being discussed. Secondly, I didn't exclude anyone when I suggested that Jackie must have looked into the Greek texts on the usage of the word "day". That was not intended to be a dig and there was absolutely no sarcasm in my mind as I typed. I am sorry if you took that comment as anything other than what it was intended to be. What you did ascertain correctly was my concern for unwaivering faith in God's Word being a literal account of His works and our ability to be swayed away from His truths in these last days. Once again, no digs were intended whatsoever. I believe my character on this forum should be known enough to realize that I love you women and my comments on our collective faith are made out of a genuine desire to build you up. If by my disagreement with anyone and my reasoning thereof in any way made it seem I was sarcastic or taking jabs, I sincerely appologize and pray this matter is now, and forever, cleared up. One can only take humility so far before one hits the ground :wink: .
I just realized that I left one of your concerns not dealt with. What I had in mind as I addressed that list of creation beliefs to " those who might not research the above mentioned questions..... " was to list some of my answers to questions posed in previous posts for the people who frequent this forum who might not be familiar with the differing views, or for those who might not have read anything about the topic before, or so on and so forth. I was not implying that any of the women already involved in the discussion had not researched the topic. I would like to think that the peole who bee-bop through the forum would appreciate some clarity in our discussions; therefore, I felt a need to address the issues in a simple format to give people an idea of what I believe to be true. Please remember that I didn't just go back and reread the entire discussion, so if I've left other things out that were expected to be illuminated in my reply....please forgive me ahead of time and be easy on me. I'm trying (in true long-winded fashion) to be thorough in my reply to Kathe's concern for my intentions.
Hey girls...... I just have so thoroughly enjoyed this very dignified conversation.... TRULY . I do have to say this will be my last post since I do make promises to myself concerning the other folks who use this forum as the issue we all have in common, homeschooling.. I have promised myself all issues discuss shall be homeschooling. But as you all also know that I don't believe in separated threads because this is a lot of who we each are ......So for the respect I have for all, those educating for secular reasons, this will be my last post on the length of creative days as I'm not trying to change minds, just trying to *go down that road* This discussion is much better suited to having you all over for a great cup of coffee!! ....This doesn't mean I won't read yours with an opened mind, I surely do and will. I value each one. First, I will be the first one to say that God do ANYTHING, well except lie. :lol: However, just because he can does something doesn't mean he always HAS to do. For illustration sake: if you had a singing voice unparralleled in beauty, would you then have no choice but to sing all the time?The notion is absurd. Same way with a strong person, would they have to go around lifting heavy objects just because they COULD. This implies that God can not control his power. Nobody, christian book commentator or otherwise had answered the simple question that remains more poweful than all creationist saying that creation is 24 hr day: It simply is: Well what about Adam? I have not read one post, not one statement addressing his length of life.. God's word speaks clearly, more powerful than just saying: *Oh well he can* Yes he can, but is his timetable and ours the same? For discussion sake, If I followed the 24 literal creation day, then I would have to say that Adam died that day. That was God's command that if he ate from the tree he would die in THAT day. Did he? No not the literal 24 hour day, he lived 930 years.. Following that some more this makes those that support 24 literal days of creation say "Now God created the earth in 24 hours, but to Adam it meant he could live longer" Would that not seem like a God who changes at a whim, who does not mean what he says? The application of 24 hour day to Adam would in effect be calling God a liar.... 24 hr has to harmonize. There have not been any scriptural application of applying Adams death to that rule that creationsist make. A just because attitude prevails because this book says so, but not one scriptural proof. . Why can not God's law of a thousand years for one day be applied here? Why is that so beyond the realm of reasonableness? How would that harmonize? First it harmonizes with Adam dying THAT day of 930 years, and it harmonizes with the Bible saying God did not call the 7th day to END..... Why would that be offensive, and not reasonable? We certainly can agree that when God said *in Noah's day* or in *Lot's day* he doesn't mean a 24 hr day but a greater length of time. Genesis 2:4.....talks about ALL the creative days as being ONE day....We don't all assume that means ONE day...we all know the number of creative days... To say that the length of creative days possibly being longer, does not in any way take away from his grander, power, energy, magnificence and supremeness. Quite the opposite, it would adorn it. It doesn't take away from him. Simply, the 1000 year rule does not conflict with Adams death, the 7th day not having an end, and the continuation of the7th day until now. The 24 hr does.. It has holes when it comes to those scriptural points. Where are its scriptural points saying 24 hour days? 24 hours just does not simply line up with Adams death. As regards the length of the seventh day it is indeed of interest that the Bible says nothing about ‘an evening and a morning,’ a beginning and an end to the seventh day as in the case of the other six days. This is a meaningful omission. The record simply states: “God proceeded to bless the seventh day and make it sacred, because on it he has been resting from all his work.”—Gen. 2:3. The only logical conclusion that we can reach is that the seventh day has continued right on. Does the Bible support this conclusion? Yes, it most certainly does, for it speaks of God as still resting thousands of years after creation. Thus at Psalm 95:8-11, we read that God said to the Israelites in the wilderness that they would not enter into his rest because of the hardness of their hearts. This shows that God had been resting from works of the sort described in Genesis chapters one and two. This is more than 2,500 years. The psalmist David, some 400 years later, at Psalm 95:8-11 speaks of entering into God’s rest in his day. And then more than a thousand years after David’s time the writer of Hebrews speaks of God as still resting in his day. He counsels Christians not to be like the Israelites in the wilderness who failed to enter into God’s rest, but that they should do their “utmost to enter into that rest,” God's rest. In this connection he says that “there remains a sabbath resting for the people of God.” And as the words of the apostle Paul are applicable to Christians today, it follows that God has been enjoying his sabbath or rest from physical creation almost six thousand years now.—Heb. 4:9, 11. So if I followed the 1,000 yr scriptural application it lines up with Adams death, the 7th day not ending, and the rest that God continues to now. In addition following the 24 hr line, we have to reason and then believe *multiple days of unequal length* which we all know is even more absurd. One creative day is 24 hours, but the day of Adam is 930 years... Just like each of our days of the weeks are of equal length, why aren't the creative days of equal length? We are still in the 7th day, many thousands years later. 24 hour doesn't work here either. Where are the scriptural proofs, not another quote from a creationist? Or is it yet beyond the realm of reasonableness because a person just views it that way? The reasonable side of me dictates to harmonize scripture with either 1,000 year days or 24 hour days? Reasonablness does not dictate to me just because the majority believe.. A majority does not itself make it right. There has not been any scriptural proof of harmonizing Adams death, just a gotta believe attitude. Yes I agree something things like Red Sea are miracles. But the truth is that God did give us scriptures for his counting of days. Adam understood that God meant what he said. He didn't think God would let him live longer than his punishment deserved. In my very, humble, humble opinion scriptural proof is so overwhelming andmore powerful than a Gotta believe because creationist say so. Not one addressed the point of still being in God's rest as brought out in Genesis. We ask him to teach us how our days to number, not the other way around. What makes it right, is it has to harmonize with the rest of the Bible. So what about Genesis not saying that the 7th day ended? Where are the 24 hr day believers on that and Adams death at 930 years. Adam died 930 years, not zapped in that DAY.... Until proof of 24 hr day is harmonized with God's judgment to Adam of 930 yrs of dying in THAT day, I have to believe God's day is at least that long, a very simply point overlooked by a lot who want to stand on the 24 hour day. Simply quoting another creationist without *internal scripture harmony* will just bring their opinions. I know we all value the proof in the scriptures. I know I do. I value what God said about his death penatly to Adam and I believed he followed through on it. If i believed the 24 hour day cycle, this would conflict with his punishment. It would conflict with the other numerous scriptures.. However,Peter's *day for a year* does coincide and makes internal harmony. Why do 24 hr creationist believe that it is scriptural anyway? Because a majority of creationist apply what the know, in a human sense, and it just doesn't add up to what Adam believed. What did Adam believe the creation days to be? The same thing the Israelites believe later when Jesus spoke to them about it. Acts encourages us in 17th chapter to reason from the scriptures, and this is all I have hoped to do. Still awake? All right, thats the end of this for me :wink: Thats my peace,and I know you will have yours.........and again, I will read it and ponder it. After all of this, I just stand speechless and marvel at God's creation.
Here's a site I found while looking for pictures for our dinosaurs for our History notebook. It goes along with our discussion above, so thought I'd share it in case anyone is interested! http://www.rick.flanders.org/religion/job/behemoth.htm
So many points to refute, all the while refuting seems so pointless. I, like Tina, have a personal commitment on any forums I visit ... I'm compelled to address generalizations which seem to put everyone in the same boat, and I have to be considerate of those who just don't want to hear 'all the religious stuff.' Each of us has some spectrum of core beliefs that makes an end to the monopoly game pointless. That was just an illustration ... don't anyone take a fit thinking I'm trivializing Bible discussions by likening them to monopoly. I was simply referring to the "on and on" way that such discussions can go when core beliefs of participants can't be reconciled. Some believe nothing died before Adam ... Some believe the creative days are literally 24 hours each ... Some believe the creative days may be longer, but still equal ... Some believe man lived with dinosaurs ... There are so many other things. The bottom line is we all don't agree, and we each could state our positions until we're blue in the face. The best place for that, I suppose, would be a Christian discussion board meant for such discussions. I do know this isn't that place, since we've assembled for the purpose of homeschooling information. The main reason I jumped in, to begin with, was my apparent misunderstanding of the comment that some might not do the research. I perceived that as somewhat of a generalization. As I already stated, I have a "thing" about generalizations. Remember the member we used to have at another location, that jumped in when she thought some of us, mostly ME, were husband-bashers?? If she's here now, no worries. I'm not stating anything rudely, or in a false manner. Just facts. Well ... I jumped in then because to generalize like that whilst being ignorant of the participants' personal circumstances was wayyyyyyy out of line. To make ANY generalization is wrong, unless you've got a slew of facts to back it up. In any case, if I JUMPED inappropriately on your "research" comment, Brooke, I apologize for that. And yes, I also thought your comment about Hebrew/Greek singled certain members as being students of Hebrew and Greek in terms of Bible research, which implied the rest of us were not digging deeper. I can only apologize for misreading your true intent behind the comment. Now .. enough blah blah blah. Think I'll train my nose to avoid Bible discussions online ... they mostly lead to dead ends in these forums. Nothing beats one-on-one conversation, with Bibles and research material spread out for sharing. Kathe
Tee hee hee......Kathe's last sentence just described the smattering of stuff on my computer desk..... :lol: Tina, I read your last post and I am better able to understand your view now. Thanks for taking the time to explain it further. I also understand the resolve not to post about it again (wish I had the willpower to do that myself :wink: ). I would love to discuss your beliefs on Adam over coffee the next time I'm in your neck of the woods :wink: . Jackie....thanks for asking Amanda to move this to another forum/thread. Good idea. I wouldn't want the animosity to brew as it had when we first moved over to Homeschoolspot regarding theological debates on the curriculum forum. Whew! Guess we all know where we stand on creation now. And it is relavent to our history discussion. As I mentioned earlier, MOH takes a young earth view and there are some who would not want to teach it to their children.
Hey all, I agree, we should post this elsewhere or stop the discussion altogether, since we've all stated what we believe... At any rate, I learned a lot! I have more info. about dionosaurs and the flood, and more research material for my 9th grader!!! Hopefully any problems are cleared up now. Thanks to all of you for your comments, it's good to hear other points of view that we can then mull over, as Tina said. It can give us food for thought, and help us be more aware of others beliefs. I enjoyed that immensely! Now, back to the history stuff.... Does MOH have info. on the ice age, or where did ya'll get the info. you used? I think I mentioned before that I wish I would've known about MOH before I'd gotten all this other stuff! I don't know if my husband could see the point of me getting yet another Bible History thing! He is, however, very happy with what we are doing! He likes timelines, and the kids learning when things happened, and the geography of it all also, it's just the expense of one more thing probably wouldn't go over well. If you that have it are willing to share little bits and pieces with me, I can probably research and fit together things well enough. Maybe when my 3rd grader gets to this point in 4 years we can get MOH! What grade levels is MOH---just elementary, or through highschool?
Tina, I think the problem is not so much with the word "day" as with the word "die". To me, Adam DID "die" that day. He "died" the minute he ate from the tree, as the sin seperated him from God. One definition of death is "seperation from God". I also agree that there was no physical death in the world until that point. And that's all I'm going to say until we can get this off of here and on a more appropriate forum! PROMISE!!! But I don't think I want to totally drop this thread! OK, back to MOH! Deena, MOH is written for multi-ages. It has a lesson, then gives additional activities divided by "younger ", "middle" and "older" students. So you can teach elementary and high schoolers at the same time by giving the older ones more in-depth indiependent study. Or you can use it now with your younger ones, and then go over it again at a later age and still get a lot out of it. Yes, there is a lesson on the ice age. Also posted in the back are some additional resources. One book mentioned is "Life in the Great Ice Age" by Michael and beverly Oard, from Answers in Genesis. Answers in Genesis also has some dinosaur books mentioned. "What Really Happened to the Dinosaurs?" by Ken Ham is one. Another that is good for younger kids is "D is for Dinosaur". Both of these are also from Answers in Genesis. Another book that we read that I found VERY interesting was "Adam and his Kin: The Lost History of Their Lives and Times"" by Ruth Beechick. It goes from Adam to Abraham.
