Piercing through to the heart of my son

I think there's a difference between "yelling" at a child and "raising your voice" to a child.

I'm going to have to disagree that "the SECOND you raise your voice to a child you've lost the argument."

The OP was describing an eight year old who breaks forth against authority. I'd raise my voice on THAT one.

I've witnessed a number of my peers who believe in that whole "reasoning" thing when it comes to handling their children and their feelings. Oddly enough, theirs are the kids I see raising their hands poised to hit their parents. They are also the children who I see lashing out physically against peers AND adults, and they exhibit the behaviours that betray other serious issues. The worst I've seen was one reasoning parent with a FIVE YEAR OLD who still wasn't toilet trained because the mother would not be forceful with the child. Yup ... she would hide behind a door and crap her pants and never be spoken to harshly. That's "reasoning with a child" for you.

The parameters must be clear. It's an excellent balance when you are your child's friend, but they also respect your authority. I know I've raised my voice plenty and my kids do NOT view me as a fool ... they understand the parameters.

 

I'll just jump in here quickly. I think Brenda meant when you raise it out of anger and frustration. I don't think she meant to be monotone. We obviously inflect our emotion into our voice and my kids know when I'm serious, and I might even be angry when I raise it. I think Brenda was referring to flying off the handle as opposed to being stern and forceful and remaining in control of those emotions.

 

That's why I said there's a difference between "yelling" and "raising your voice."

Nevertheless, the context in which it was said included "arguments or whatever else it is."

I just don't argue. I state my position and a person is free to agree or disagree, whether it's my husband or anyone else. I especially would not be engaged in a back-and-forth type debate with a child ... mine or anyone else's. There should be no arguments with a child ... THAT's when they have the upper hand.

I guess that might sound unyielding with only superficial consideration. When you think about it, though, a loving parent sets parameters because they are of benefit to the child; not simply because they feel like being restrictive. That's just not kind.

So, if the boundaries are set with the right motive, then there is no argument. It is a "do it or else" type scenario which parents have full right to exact. Of course, the degree of what constitutes "or else" has to be within reason. The other case, where a parent is just being restrictive without a real basis for it will frustrate the child because the boundaries are unclear. That includes stuff like saying "no" to everything or seemingly so without giving a decent reason why. Any child is going to crumble under such conditions.

I guess my previous post should have said something more like, "if you're arguing with a child to begin with, that's the problem; regardless of whether you're yelling or simply raising your voice."

 

Well, you girls tell me what better way I can handle this, if you feel you have an answer.
Before I let go, I would tell him to be ready to go Sunday a.m. Sunday a.m. I would call him with plenty of time to get ready and he would just refuse.
The boy was 14 or so when he stopped going, maybe older, so I couldn't very well dress him and carry him out to the car.
He's 18 now, 6'5" so I still am not able to carry him out.

I still stand by my belief that God will bring him back. Plus, he hasn't traded his church upbringing for sinful living. He's not here smoking dope or watching porn while we're gone.

Someone said pick your battles. I'm cool with that, especially since he's not doing anything bad in place of not being in church.

I also still say by you all having younger kids it is a different story. Now, if any of you think you can do things differently, be my guest. I'm anxious to see what you come up with.

 

You're so right that it's different with younger kids. The best reference I have is with my husband. His parents (his whole family) quit going when he was 14. He was still a good kid, had good moral values, etc..... but they didn't go to church. When he turned 16 and was old enough to drive himself to church, he ended up getting a job. Of course, all high school kids have to work Sundays. He totally got out of the 'habit' (for lack of a better term) and it lasted a long time.

When we were married, I tried to get him to come to church with me, and he had no interest. In his mind, he was a good person, had a good prayer life, lived a moral life and he'd been fine all those years without attending church. In fact, the first 7 years of our marriage, I went to church alone, and then with the kids after we had them. He never discouraged me to go, in fact he helped get the kids ready for me, but he didn't want to go. If I pushed, he resented it and told me that pushing him would just make him more obstinate.

Now, I'm proud to say that my husband is back in the church. I wish I could take the credit for it, but I know it was God's hand (with a lot of prayers). He had to find his way. He's very involved now, teaching and singing at every opportunity. He really regrets those wasted years, now. But we've decided that instead of dwelling on them, he can use that time as an example to others who give the same excuses he did at the time. He is ashamed of his abandoning the church for 16+ years, but is so thankful that he found his way back.

I guess my point is that at this point in his life, you can't force him to do anything he's not ready to do. I made sure that my husband knew that I prayed for him to come back to church, everyday. It took seven years into our marriage for him to come back....but it's all in God's time and not mine.

I'll keep your family in our prayers as you're going through this. I pray that God's strength will stay with you and guide you through these next steps you need to take.

 

Actually, Becky, I wasn't even thinking of your situation with Kevin when I posted any of what I said. However, "if the shoe fits." I mean you DID engage us collectively by saying something like "if you girls think you can do better ..... ."

I guess I won't know if I've done better until my oldest is 18. I'm not going to sit idly by, though, even IF he starts giving me guff ... and he is 14 now. I may not have an 18 year old and, yes, SOME of my kids are young, but I do have two teenageers, which accounts for something. Before I know it, I'll have FIVE teenagers.

Never am I going to argue with them. Never am I going to step aside from my stance as I stated in an earlier post. We've emailed personally long enough for you to know I'm militant about things. That's because there ARE many aspects of parenting which require the "do it or else" approach ... and I'm sticking to that.

They just know that the "or else" includes consequences that will significantly change their pleasantly simple little worlds. I'm quite sure I'm their best advocate and that's not something they want to toss away flippantly. In other words they don't tick me off too often because they don't like the results.

The bottom line is that they don't run this house. We are a family and we do things together and no one stays behind ... not from outings, not from worship, not from work. We expect them to roll up their sleeves and dig in, if that's what is going on. If they don't, there are always consequences. We also make sure they share in the joys, whatever they may be.

Sorry if you took it personally. I tend to deal with the comments of the OP as well as any rebuttals I may disagree with. That was the intent of my post. Besides, girl, you know that if I had something to say to you, I'd say it in email so

 

Yes, there is a difference between "yelling" and "raising your voice". One of the best books I'd read while a "real" teacher had to do with Assertive Discipline. First of all, I DON'T agree with everything about assertive discipline...I saw how it was being used across the board in one school district I subbed in, and it was a MESS! But it DID say that you state your expectations to the child, and refuse to be drawn into an arguement. They will try to get fighting about everything BUT the issue. For example..."You must go to church" (since that's what we were discussing). The kid can argue about how none of his friends go to church, how you don't "trust him" to stay alone, etc. All those things are BESIDE THE POINT. What other kids do are irrelevent to what you expect of your kids. And if the kid gets you to say "Yes, I do trust you! Why do you say that?" then the whole subject has changed and he has distracted you and put you on the defense. So the best line is to keep coming back with "Doesn't matter. You still have to go to church." They refer to it as the "broken record", because you just keep calmly repeating your demands. Then you also state the consequences of NOT complying, in the way of a choice. I've done that with homework. "You need to do your math. If you don't want to do it now, that's OK. That means you chose to do tonight around 6:00" To which I was told, "But soccer practice is at 6:00!" "Well, I guess if that's your choice, you'll need to call Coach and explain to him why you won't be at practice tonight. But of course, it's up to you......"

I think I said before that we have the verse "Do all things without grumbling or disputing". That is our bottom line whenever the kids start to argue with me. Again, my kids are younger, and are still in the "training" stage. Hopefully, when they're older, they will know the boundaries well enough to not push them too hard.

As far as church goes, the rule in our house is that you go. Period. DH and I have discussed his boys staying with us again. He has told the oldest that if he comes and lives here (he's over 20!) he would be REQUIRED to go to church. If he's not willing to do that, he can't stay here. Period. He was with us for a while without that rule; DH said that was a mistake on his (DH's) part. Becky, I feel a lot of the problem at your place is your husband's unwillingness to stand with you. While I feel church shouldn't be a choice, as long as your DH is indifferent to it, you cannot possibly win. As a result, I think you're better off "letting go and letting God", as they say.

 

ET TU, Kathe? LOL!!!
I wasn't taking anything personally that anybody said. I'm just listening.
Jackie brought up a point, though. Her older boys can't live home ifg they refuse to go to church. Does that mean I should consider putting Kevin out?

 

I'm not sure that's your decision to make, Becky, but your husband's. And I also know that it is a decision that needs to be made with lots of prayer, and perhaps advice from Godly people that know your family and your son. Either way, it's very difficult and painful. And it wasn't my intent at all to tell you to kick your son out. I was stating what my DH has decided concerning his sons.

 

But what I'm asking is- is that how far it should go? If an older child refuses to go to church should it come to the point where you tell them to leave?
What if they have nowhere to go? Do you put them in the street because they won't go to church?

 

Becky,
The things I would be more concerned about (regarding your son) are whether he still reads God's Word, whether he still prays, how his relationship with God has been, and how his attitudes & behaviors are. Going to church doesn't make you a Christian! I believe having a fellowship with other believers is important; however, not going to church is not the end of the world . Not having relationship with Christ is!!! (in my opinion) Worshipping God and studying God's Word should be parts of our daily living, not just on Sundays. Living a Godly life, in my opinion, is more important than a perfect church attendance.

Anyway, I think it's important for you to keep praying for him, show him Christ's love & compassion, Christlike attitudes, and share with him what God has been doing in your life. Keep being salt and light to him. He is reading you (whether you realize or not).

Have you ever read "Rebel with a Cause" by Franklin Graham? Even Billy Graham had a son who rebelled (hard to believe...but it's true). Ruth Bell Graham wrote a book called "Prodigals and Those Who Love Them." It's not always parents' faults. Each person has a choice to follow God or to reject Him. He/she has a choice to submit his/her life to God or to live a carefree (miserable in soul), self-satisfying life without God. I'll certainly be praying for you, your husband, and Kevin.

 

Each of us have our own lines drawn in the sand. No one can tell you where yours should be drawn. There has to be a balance between mercy and justice. What is totally unacceptable for one child might be seen an improvement for another. And sometimes it IS NECESSARY to let them live on the streets, hard as that is. It's called TOUGH LOVE. And understand, I'm NOT saying that's the best course for youl; I don't live in your situation, so I don't know. My stepsons have had it happen, totally by THEIR OWN choice. They can stay with us or their grandma any time they want, BUT only if they follow the rules, church being only one of them. When they left here, they first went to Grandma (who felt that they just needed "love and understanding", because they had such a "wicked step-mom".) Boy, did she learn fast it wasn't all ME!!! Granma is still trying to make their life as comfortable as possible. Personally, I feel they won't turn around until they hit rock-bottom. Look at the Prodigal Son. It took him living in a pig stye before he had a change of heart. Unfortunately, with my MIL that would neverhave happened, as she would have refused him the "opportunity" of pig-stye living. ANd sometimes that's what it takes. We sometimes need to allow it to happen OUT OF LOVE.

Also, too, I think the problem in your home is NOT church attendance, but the lack of respect for you and possibly for his dad. That should NEVER be tolerated. I know you have no respect for Dr. Dobson, but he (and others!) say there are only two offenses in children that require spanking...defiance and disrespect. Allowing those two sins to continue breeds rebellion. Is church the only "sticking point"? If it is, then I wouldn't be in a hurry to "kick him out". Or is he rebellious about other things, too? Is he constantly "in your face" when you ask him to pick up, or ignores curfews, or goes out constantly without telling you where? How about lying to you about where he is? (That was Jason's big one!!! He'd call, claiming it was from work, never mind our his friend's name on ourCaller ID. BUSTED!!! That was the one that upset Grandma the most.) As blessedmom stated, not attending church doesn't mean he's become a "real heathen". and can often be worked around. The rebellion is a different matter. God equates it to witchcraft (1 Samuel 15:23).

No one has any easy answers. Again, Blessedmom tells talks about the need to pray. That's sometimes ALL you can do. God will give you wisdom when to act and when to show patience.

 

Jackie I never said I don't respect Dr Dobson, I just don't think he's an authority on feminine issues. Joyce Meyer, yes. Him, no.


Blessedmom, I think I saw the Grahams on Larry King talking about that book, and the trials they went through. Kids are kids, no matter who the parents are!!

 

JOYCE MEYERS!!!! Well, isn't it great God made us different, LOL?

 

What's wrong with Joyce Meyer?

Many years ago I saw her in person. I was very disappointed in how she pushed for offering. She laid it on thick for almost 1/2 hour, asking for money.
I do like to hear her speak.

 

Honestly, I have never heard her speak. But what little I know about her can be summed up in what you said. My impression is that money's her big push. For me, no matter how "right on" her message is, if moeny comes across as the motive my mind tneds to simply shut down.

 

It's interesting that the prodigal son was mentioned. There are some other vital aspects to that parable that can't be ignored.

First, HE left and squandered what he had. He wasn't booted out.

Second, the stance of the father was always eager expectation that he would return. The fact that he caught sight of him "while he was yet a long way off" shows he was always *looking* for his return. (Luke 15:20).

Third, there is no doubt the son had not done a complete 180 degree turn-around before he returned to his father yet he was received with mercy and tenderness. The scriptures say "when he came to his senses." Such a change does not immediately produce all the right works but it does reflect the heart's desire to do so. . It is, therefore, a gesture of repentence that our forgiving Father looks for and blesses.

I'm not getting the "tough love" aspect at all in that parable.

In any case, I am totally lost as to how this post turned into a Becky/Kevin thing, instead of addressing the concerns of the OP and her eight-year-old who has been described as against authority, even lying about it. How is it that Kevin is suddenly worse ???

And what's up with all these people that are being suggested as authorities for advice. I don't know who this Dr. Dobson is, or what Focus on the Family stands for, but I would not subscribe to the philosopies of any man for my insights on God's word.

Becky ... imho they're right about one thing, at least. Prayer. But you already knew that. Keep Kevin close and be a good example yourself. Allow him to see that you're a better person because of the power of God's word. Demonstrate that you dislike his choice(s) ... not him as a person ... by showing him a better way. Praise him for the good that he does, as I'm sure you already do. Acknowledge any false messages he may be being sent, and admit your own contributions to those false messages. If it applies, explain why things are the way they are between you and Dean (even while you're effecting changes), rather than expecting everyone to just accept it and "work with it," if that applies.

With all that said, it's exhausting to do the right thing when no one around you cares to. Yet, Jesus did it. Yes, he was perfect and we're not, but we have a "helper" in the holy spirit, which we can pray for in abundance (John 14:25, 26).

 

Kathe, I feel that, like the Prodigal Son, my older boys CHOSE to leave. They were told what the expectations were, and decided to take off instead. We didn't stop them from doing that. Like the father, we are waiting expectantly for them to return. (No, we DON'T expect them to ever move back in with us, LOL! But we ARE expecting that change of heart-attitude, the repentence you refere to.) In the mean time, we pray for them daily. If they should call, we talk with them and welcome them to visit. They both know they are welcome to come for dinner whenever they wish, though I WOULD rather have advance notice, because I want to make sure we have enough and I'd cook something I knew they especially liked. Jason is welcome to bring his live-in girlfirend with him; we include her at holidays and I will buy her a present at Christmas. My husband even goes out of his way to pick them up and bring them if they need it. About the only thing we WON'T do is help pay for things. We've done that in the past, and DH finally decided that it helped them to continue in an inappropriate lifestyle. But they are young adults, and like all of us, must live with the consequences of their decisions. You are absolutely right that a change of heart attitude doesn't mean perfection, nor do we expect it to. But for my boys, the repentence isn't there.

I also feel that there is nothing wrong with getting insigts in God's word from other people. You are right in that we cannot DEPEND on others for all our insights, but we CAN glean wisdom from others. We are constantly gleaning wisdom and insight and wisdom from one another here! Nor should we take any one person's word blindly, but check what is being said against the Scriptures.

 

My comments were not directed at your situation with your step-sons, Jackie. Besides, at their ages, to even enter your home and not show respect for your rules is simply rude. It's beyond a disciplinary situation.

I was referring to the concept of tough love in reference to the question Becky raised as to whether it is necessary to go THAT far.

The parable, which Jesus used to highlight God's profound readiness to forgive, does not seem to suggest such extreme measures are necessary. Of course, it's different when a person living in the home is disruptive to the point where the spirituality of the home in general is compromised. That requires action.

In Becky's case, it's not Kevin that is compromising the spirituality of their home. She and I have emailed personally for long enough that I can confidently make that assessment.

 

Kathe, I went back and reread the first few posts. I thought Becky volunteered her situation to be discussed. I tried to pull it back at one point and it kept going back to that and finally I couldn't take it anymore with all the comments so I posted what I thought about the situation.

When someone comes out against several things I just posted about on a forum, that person should expect a response to their comments. Becky has been bantering with the best of them, so it doesn't give the impression she is upset about the way the conversation has changed direction from my OP.

I would've liked to have the post stay focused on ways I can get through to my own son, but if someone else can get some help for their situation, that's fine, too. What I really, really don't want is for second parties to set the stage for a "stop picking on so-and-so" thing. Whenever that happens the thread goes incredibly bad. I think that all of us who are participating here are able to fend for ourselves. If someone doesn't want the participate further it is their decision to continue posting or not.