Piercing through to the heart of my son

I have heard more than myself on this forum having problems with penetrating the heart of issues with boys. I have read scripture as well as Dr. Dobson's Bringing Up Boys, but I feel like I could use some practical advice and encouragement right now.

We recently moved and started attending a new church today. To my surprise, my 8yo ds LOVED church today! Woo hoo! But then at Awana tonight he did the same routine as usual for anything putting people in authority over him. He just gets up and leaves the classroom. His Leader had to come find me--which is not easy in this building--and let me know that my son was supposed to have been feeling sick and come to find me (which he did so I had him lay in a pew but when this guy found me my son was nowhere in sight--I was having choir practice during the end of Awana). Anyway, ds had taken it upon himself to go back upstairs but did not return to his class...he was caught running around upstairs by himself.

Anyway, we have always had a problem with him respecting authority....since birth, seriously. I went home and spanked him after talking to him about it during and after church on the way home and then I talked some more. Not lecture, just short sentences and scripture about God using authority figures to teach us submission and obedience, not to mention these people have wisdom for us to draw from. Anyway, I have been using this method for literally years and I feel like we continually have to start over with each new instructor or authority figure ds gets. HELP!!!! Anyone have any sage advice? or maybe even a study they would recommend for us to go through? I really need some wisdom.....I feel like I need to seek wise counsel before going into battle here.

Thanks, ladies.

 

Have you seen the book, "For Instruction in Righteousness" by Pam Forster? It's published by Doorposts. www.Doorposts.net

Anyway, it lists major "base" sins and scriptures concerning them, such as "shifting blame//making excuses" or "lying/deceit/dishonesty". It lists information and commandments about this, spiritual consequences for continuing in this, and blessing for appropriate behavior. It lists verses to memorize to help overcome.

When it comes to AWANAS, you might have your child not go. Instead, he can sit in the pew (totally bored to death!!!) during AWANAS time while you're in choir practice, since he's chosing NOT to go and he can't be left on his own. Take his own choices to an extreme with him. Give him what he wants and allow him to suffer the consequences of them.

(No this isn't "tried and true" stuff that I've done myself. Mine fortunately haven't tested me in that way yet. It's just a thought.) God DOES promise us wisdom when we ask, and sometimes I think that promise is in the Bible to relate directly to raising children!!! After all, He loves our kids much more than we ever can (which to me is an absolutely AWSOME thought!!!)

 

Brooke, my Kevin used to disappear each Sunday as soon as the service started!!
Sometimes he would sit in the lobby and other times he would just hang out in the mens room.
I got to the point where I just started leaving him home when he was old enough. He was disrespecting the pastor by ducking out and wasn't getting the message anyway.

We have a young girl at church who does the same thing now, and she will even play cards in the ladies room!

As far as Dr Dobson- we have a tape of his at church where he discusses women's issues, including menstruation. Like he speaks from experience!!!???!! I take him with a grain of salt.

 

Personally, I would NEVER allow a child to stay home from church. If he can't stay in the service by himself, he would be sitting right next to me and his dad. (And yes, we DID do that with DSS!) I know you think Dr. Dobson knows nothing, which is too bad. You are missing out on a lot. I agree that you should NEVER accept what ANYONE says blindly, but consider the words to see what truth there might be in them. I have found Dr. Dobson to be, for the most part, a man of integrity and wisdom. How many of us go to OB/GYNs that are male? They have no more practical "experience", either.

 

Oh, I went to a male for ob/gyn for years, but then I realized he cannot understand cramps, menstrual flow, discharge... you get my drift. A female ob/gyn experiences these things. I never knew I had a tipped womb until I started seeing a female gyn. It's my opinion that men should be barred from that profession, just as women should be barrred from treating male issues.

Jackie, what can Dr Dobson possibly know about monthly cycles?

 

Hmmmmm....back to the issue at hand :wink: ......

Jackie, I am much like you. I did just that last night. I made him sit right next to me during choir practice. At our former church I didn't allow him to go to Awana for the last couple months because of the group dynamics (different story).

Bringing Up Boys helped me a lot. It made me see what being a boy is all about because I have no idea what that is like. I want him to grow into a respectfull as well as respectable man. My dh has not been a good role model over ds's years. Dh has a "nobody's gonna tell me what to do" mentality.....no wonder where the issue originated :roll: . Anyway, I pray for ds (and dh) but I am so worn out spiritually lately. I have also come to the conclusion that I can't force ds to care about scripture. I have my own parenting issues to face....I respect authority, so when I am the authority I demand obedience and get frustrated when I can't force obedience, especially where attitude is concerned.

Ds is a gifted actor, too. So like last night I really thought he was feeling sick so I had him lay down in a pew toward the back so that the choir wouldn't make his supposed headache worse.....blah, blah, blah.....you know the rest of the story. He is good at manipulating reactions from people by acting (convincingly I might add) to provoke the reaction he wants. Unfortunately I have seen him on more than one occasion fake repentance. That is what scares me the most. He has the ability to seem like he cares about the things of the Lord when I don't necessarily know if he does or not. I feel like I am dealing with a teenager WAY before my time. I talk to him like I would counsel an adult, and he understands perfectly, but he is nonetheless covertly rebelling. I don't want to lose him!

Staying home from church will never be a possibility, and we don't even allow Jr. Church because we have to constantly keep ds with us or we get the same problems with authority. He is aware that if his attitude changes he will have more freedoms. He knows that 5yo dd is allowed to go to other areas of the church without us because we trust her. We have had so many problems with ds that we don't trust him to obey us when we aren't watching.

Are we stuck in a vicious cycle here? I am wondering if our parenting is perpetuating the problem????? Any ideas? I am more than willing to change my parenting style, which I have already to some extent when I am afforded a glimpse into what kind of parenting ds needs. Sorry to ramble. I just feel so unequipped to handle this.

 

My opinion is, I can't force Kevin to go each Sunday. The yelling that results is not worth it, plus we have neighbors to be considerate of. Remember, your kids are younger than Kevin and I'm not going to ruin my worship by arguing with him.
I also am not comfortable doing this, but I know he's in God's hands and God will bring him back in someday.

 

Becky, I meant no criticism. We all need to pick our battles carefully, and not one of us would pick the exact same ones. Yes, my kids are younger, but my DH had custody of his two boys, now ages 22 and 24. They are still being rebellious, but since they no longer live here, we no longer have to deal with it. Also, it depends on how much support your DH gives you. It is almost impossible for you to "do battle" on an issue if your DH doesn't consider it an issue, also.

As far as Dr. Dobson goes, my midwife is about 27 years old and single. She has had never been pregnant, and knowing her as I do I assume she is also still a virgin. Yet I trust her judgement in such matters. Dr. Dobson may not have the personal experience, but he does have a wife and daughter. He is not totally ignorant, nor do I believe him unsympathetic.

 

Okay, you got it perfectly Jackie. Can you see yourself getting up in the older boys' faces about going to church? It's not worth ruining your worship time, and that's exactly what it does.
I used to hate to see Sunday come because I'd sit there fuming for nearly the whole hour. What good is that? It certainly isn't respectful to God. He'll bring Kevin in someday. For now Kevin will just play out his teen angst each week.
To me, this is Satan trying to interfere with our worship. I need to trust that God will change Kevin, and I do.
Remember, 'my rules my house', so it's not like he lives a carefree life here!
Now, when Kevin was your kids' ages he had a class to go to, so he was kept busy.
I wish they'd develop a class for the older teens during worship, but it'll never happen.

It's also true that the husband needs to step in, too. Mine doesn't and he could just as easily never gop back. He goes to shut me up.

About Dr Dobson- if his wife or daughter would write something, I might read it.
I'm not putting down all his work, but on female issues he can't be taken as an authority.
Your midwife might be a virgin, but she still has more common sense about what's going on than a male would.
I wish you could have seen the gruff doctor on duty when I went in to have Jeanne.
I couldn't stay out of the bathroom, and the nurses explained that was a normal thing, that my body was preparing for birth. Making room, I'd say!!
Well this doctor, a man, did everything but stick his head into the bathroom, yelling at me to submit to an internal exam before my gyn got there, to determine dilation.
I finally told him I couldn't help it and he would just have to wait until all this elimination stopped, or take his chances!!!
I was so embarassed, and this male doctor was a jerk. The nurses- females- told me to take my time and ignore him, but as soon as I feel able let them know when I can be examined.
See, that more understanding attitude was because of them being female, maybe even from giving birth themselves. The male doctor might have the mechanics down pat, but the other issues with childbirth he cannot. He just can't.

 

I realize that my comments might not be welcome, Becky, but as the OP I feel like I'm entitled to some degree.....

Have you ever stepped back and looked at your family's issues from a third party point of view? I don't believe we should ever assume that the Lord will bring someone back into a building and that will be what "cures" the son's condition. Going into the sanctuary should never, EVER outway the heart issues of your son who was hanging out in the bathroom. He seems to have needed someone to be Jesus to him, not act like he is cramping your worship style. God tells us if we bring our gift (our worship) to Him and have an issue with our brother (or in this case a son) we should leave our gift right there and deal with our relationship FIRST. We are not able to worship HIm in an honoring way if we have these other things going on.

Now before you bite me back, please know that I am shaking as I am typing. My heart is literally aching right now with a knot in my throat. My issues with my son are tearing me apart and I am looking at Kevin, which could be my son years down the road, and I don't want that for my son. I don't want that for anyone's son. I don't have anything to offer as a solution other than prayer (obviously, or I wouldn't have started this thread), but I can't imagine having that attitude when my son is outside the sanctuary spiritually dying.

 

And my viewpoint is this- I am not showing him Jesus by yelling and screaming every Sunday PLUS that's not good for Jeannie to see and hear.
I'm not showing our neighbors Jesus when they hear us arguing.( our whole house shares a wall with two apartments) We have new neighbors next door. What if God is working on them to seek out a church if they haven't already and they hear us each week? What godly example is that?
YES I DO believe God will work on Kevin's heart and bring him back. His gentle persuasion is far better than my big obnoxious mouth. If I follow your thinking I would never go myself, because I would get sick of watching Kevin, wondering where he went THIS time. I certainly can't chase him out of the men's room.
So, yes I will continue like I am.
This is a Christian house where a lot of things aren't tolerated, so he might sit it out each week, but he is certainly not living a heathen lifestyle.
I do not think he is 'cramping' my worship style, but like I stated before, what respect am I showing God during that time if I'm sitting there fuming, in a bad mood and not really listening because I'm mentally rehashing the bickering of the morning?

I'm not taking offense to any of these comments because you girls know what works atyour house and I know what works here.

 

I guess what I was trying to get to in my last post (that went astray due to emotions) is that the place to begin is not even with your son. It's with your yelling and screaming. That doesn't have to be part of our communication. Instead of letting him to himself or whatever else you are doing to "avoid" that behavior of yelling matches, just stop yourself from doing it. You are the adult.

In our home certain behavior isn't tolerated either, but that goes for the grown-ups, too. If I blow my top, which I have in the past, I am convicted so much about it that I can't do much else until I reconcile the relationship with the person I blew up at. That's scriptural. It's not a matter of what works, or what I feel like is "working" in my house. It's a matter of "this is the way God made us to function and there is no getting around it".

 

I've donned the sackcloth AND I'm sitting in ashes so NO ONE bite me PLEASE ...

I'll start by admitting I have ZERO clue as to the desired outcomes of AWANAS (I didn't say I have ZERO clue as to what it IS, though), or to what faith(s) it caters, etc. I can say the same of Sunday School and whatever other child-related programs are offered through a church.

What I DO have a clue about is the pattern set forth in the scriptures, which encourages families to worship together. I don't understand why there are youth groups and other such SEPARATE events sometimes WHILE the parents are listening to a service.

That's not how it was done in Israel. “Congregate the people, the men and the women and the little ones and your alien resident who is within your gates, in order that they may listen and in order that they may learn..." (Deut 31:12). That's how the people gathered ... as families ... and worshiped together. They were all present for the reading of the law AND during the many festivals.

As for the type of instruction that sounds God's truths into the heart of little ones; that, too, was done on the family level. Parents set the example first though, as shown in Deut. 6:6-9. I won't quote it here, but it's a powerful passage. God's word must be on our own hearts first, and then we inculcate that in our children of ANY age. The passage speaks of various occasions and implies that there are always teachable moments and opportunities to plant a love of God's word in their impressionable hearts. With such a positive and gentle structure, there's no need for classes taught by someone ELSE. It's the role of parents.

Might it be the case that the children would respond better if not sent off to these classes, separate from the family? As homeschoolers we know all too well the impact of the family home on a child's learning. The same is true of religious instruction. Jesus also did not send the children off. I seriously question the impression that gives them ... and the message they're being sent.

I just can't imagine worship without my children, or sending them off trusting that someone else will adequately instruct them in God's word. Perhaps the ones that seem to be "bucking" don't understand why THEY have these extra things to attend, when the parents don't, as if the parents aren't in need of it. In Israel, the adults AND the children heard the law read together.

This is purely an objective view, which I have because I don't know the individual mandates of these classes. Therefore I scrutinize such classes as a whole separate from the issue of weighing their individual purposes.

I'm just suggesting that maybe the children are being sent the wrong message, and that worship as families at all times is more unifying.

 

I'm in agreement, Kathe, for the most part. I'm not a big "Jr. Church" person. However, there are those times when kids need to be responsible to some extent for their own spiritual lives. My ds is old enough to chose joy and obedience while he is being instructed. In the case of Awana on Sunday evening, I was with my kids until the last half hour because of choir....and incedentally, ds got to go to that with me :wink: and he still bucked cuz it wasn't what he really wanted, which was to leave because he had embarrassed himself (his words, not mine).

Thanks for the insight. I know several families who don't use the Sunday School program at thier churches either for the reasons you mentioned. Our Sunday Schools are actually small groups and my whole family enjoys it very, very much. We instruct at home daily in the way that most families would utilize Sunday School classes (Bible stories and object lessons), so the small groups are much more about forming relationships with believers. Although, I will say that we have attended churches where we didn't participate in Sunday School because it was more like a "class", which I don't subject my family to.

Ds has a problem with authority when that person is expecting him to participate in something he doesn't want to do at the time. He didn't want to sing, so instead of not singing he is disrespectful by walking out, he then lies to his Leader saying he is sick, and then deceives me by saying he will lay down in the pew when he actually got up and ran around. I don't think in this case it has to do with the instruction of someone other than his parents.

UPDATE.......ds has since appologized to me for his behavior and stated that he in fact really likes our new church. He is just not looking forward to going back into the group that he "embarrassed" himself in front of.....oh, the lessons that will be learned 8) .

 

Of course he's embarrassed, and it's EXCELLENT that he apologized.

However, the issue remains ... why won't he accept authority and even worse, why did he lie???

I wish I had an answer for you. I know, though, that you've taught him to pray, and that's his first best step.

 

I know the yelling and screaming is wrong. Can you imagine how long it took to get to that point or how high the level of my aggravation must have been for me to get to that point? I apologized later, but each week the cycle would start over. It didn't get better until I let go and let God handle it.

 

Has anyone read the Power of a Praying Parent by Stormie O'Martian? That book was excellent for me. Along with the Power of a Praying Wife. When I read the wife one I realized that God was changing me. It was not all my hubbys problems it was me too. Then we had kids and I had a quick temper, get mad and stay mad. I started reading this book and now I am fairly mellow. I hardly yell and normally that is more of a theres a car coming get out of the road type deal. ( Good books thats all )

My parents took the stand of God will bring our daughter back to Him when He is ready. Well we are all still waiting. My sister is going to be 33 this year and could care less about religion of any sort. I do not know what the answer is, I really do not. I know that God knows all and everything is in His hands. But in my mind if there is not a hey we care about you and want you to learn about God that kid will take it as my parents do not care and God does not care about me. That is what my sister says. She still feels this way. Again, I do not know the answer but there has to be one somewhere.

As for Dr. Dobson, I have heard that the book Bringing up boys is excellent and am waiting for my cousing to finish it so I can borrow it. Ob/gyns, well I have a set of 5 drs. 4 are male, 1 female. The female dr. is the rudest dr. I have met in my life. If I say that I am having a hard time with a period she tells me to suck it up that they are not that bad. The guys on the other hand have been excellent. We found out why I have hard times and that woman had nothing to say or do about it. So my thought there is, it all depends on the dr. There are good male and female docs out there it just depends on which one ya get!

 

Pray, Pray, Pray

When my husband stopped coming to church, I realized (after many heated debates) that the best thing I could do was turn it over to God---a hard thing, but the best thing. I remember asking my husband why he didn't want to come and he would say, "The harder you push me, the more I'll push back. Let me come back when I'm ready." I took it to heart and a friend directed me to Power of a Praying Wife. I made sure that he knew that I was reading it to let him know how much I was concerned.

I'll keep you in my prayers as you're going through this roller coaster of emotion.

 

Thanks, ladies, for the support. I tend to get a bit more emotional a certain few days of the month and that, of course, was when all this hit. One thing that the Lord reminded me of is to check to see if my kids' love tanks are full. I realized that in the middle of our move and adjustment, ds hasn't had much one-on-one time with me or dh. That is his primary love language. I immediately asked him if he wanted to go shopping with me--which he jumped on. We had a really great time and ds's spirits just soar when he gets what he needs from me. Now I'm crying happy tears.... :cry: . He was so happy cuz I gave him the list and he got everything we needed. While I was browsing the clearance bin he actually was flying solo and asking store clerks when he couldn't find something. What a great kid! He's 8 and wants to be 20 so bad. Another thing that challenges us is just that--he's more mature than what society allows him to be so when I am comfortable with certain parameters they are not always socially acceptable, or legal :roll: for a kid his age. I could spend a while just talking about how his mental age affects his life, but that is a whole different thread.

Anyway, we're making progress a day at a time. We don't mature physically overnight, and our spiritual life is a direct parallel.

 

I'm going to deviate from the origin of the post (I think) and follow some comments that I've seen in the last couple posts...

When there becomes a Spiritual battle in the home - whether with a child or your spouse, I'm learning (yes, my home too) to keep my tongue tame (as hard as it is somedays) and to give it all to God - He knows my heart and knows how to fix the problem. All I can do to bring the person(s) around is give it over to God, lead by example and pray for them. This is not easy to do - I don't understand why they don't want to have the same relationship with Him that I have (a no brainer if you ask me). Harping does absolutely no good to them - in the end it might actually push them further away. When others see your fruits, they will come. Sometimes being a silent witness is more effective than being the nagging mother/wife (have been told that).

When it comes to yelling at a child in the "heat of a moment" hoping depserately to "get through" all it serves to do is make the 'adult' look like a fool. The second you raise your voice at a child, you've lost the arguement or whatever else it is (takes a long time to figure that one out) and ultimately given your child the upper hand (assumably you didn't want the child to have in the first place). Sad isn't it?

Brooke, maybe Brandon is testing the waters right now to see how much he'll be able to get away with and how others interact with him ("Hmmmm, I wonder if I can run like a mad man here like I used to when we went to the other church?"). This has been a major move for all of you and it will take some time to get back on track - unfortunately I can say that from experience (we're still adjusting from all the mortgage stress that I tried too hard to handle myself and it's harder to make a come back than it was to get into this mess in the first place). It will take time, but I believe he will come around, but he's going to make the most of it for a while.

As for the Power of a Praying Wife and the Power of a Praying Mom - I have to say I agree... I read the wife book and am working in it again - this time as a devotional way of doing it. Then I will do the child one (I pray for all of them now, but will read what the book has to say).

In the meantime, I continue to pray for you guys too - that this all turns out for His glory without too many bumps or scrapes along the way (and preferably no 2x4 in the head). It's amazing how God will use my past mistakes and lessons I learned to help others.

Hugs,
Brenda