Piercing through to the heart of my son

[Brooke]

I have heard more than myself on this forum having problems with penetrating the heart of issues with boys. I have read scripture as well as Dr. Dobson's Bringing Up Boys, but I feel like I could use some practical advice and encouragement right now.

We recently moved and started attending a new church today. To my surprise, my 8yo ds LOVED church today! :D Woo hoo! But then at Awana tonight he did the same routine as usual for anything putting people in authority over him. He just gets up and leaves the classroom. His Leader had to come find me--which is not easy in this building--and let me know that my son was supposed to have been feeling sick and come to find me (which he did so I had him lay in a pew but when this guy found me my son was nowhere in sight--I was having choir practice during the end of Awana). Anyway, ds had taken it upon himself to go back upstairs but did not return to his class...he was caught running around upstairs by himself.

Anyway, we have always had a problem with him respecting authority....since birth, seriously. I went home and spanked him after talking to him about it during and after church on the way home and then I talked some more. Not lecture, just short sentences and scripture about God using authority figures to teach us submission and obedience, not to mention these people have wisdom for us to draw from. Anyway, I have been using this method for literally years and I feel like we continually have to start over with each new instructor or authority figure ds gets. HELP!!!! Anyone have any sage advice? or maybe even a study they would recommend for us to go through? I really need some wisdom.....I feel like I need to seek wise counsel before going into battle here.

Thanks, ladies.

[Jackie]

Have you seen the book, "For Instruction in Righteousness" by Pam Forster? It's published by Doorposts. www.Doorposts.net

Anyway, it lists major "base" sins and scriptures concerning them, such as "shifting blame//making excuses" or "lying/deceit/dishonesty". It lists information and commandments about this, spiritual consequences for continuing in this, and blessing for appropriate behavior. It lists verses to memorize to help overcome.

When it comes to AWANAS, you might have your child not go. Instead, he can sit in the pew (totally bored to death!!!) during AWANAS time while you're in choir practice, since he's chosing NOT to go and he can't be left on his own. Take his own choices to an extreme with him. Give him what he wants and allow him to suffer the consequences of them.

(No this isn't "tried and true" stuff that I've done myself. Mine fortunately haven't tested me in that way yet. It's just a thought.) God DOES promise us wisdom when we ask, and sometimes I think that promise is in the Bible to relate directly to raising children!!! After all, He loves our kids much more than we ever can (which to me is an absolutely AWSOME thought!!!)

[becky]

Brooke, my Kevin used to disappear each Sunday as soon as the service started!!
Sometimes he would sit in the lobby and other times he would just hang out in the mens room.
I got to the point where I just started leaving him home when he was old enough. He was disrespecting the pastor by ducking out and wasn't getting the message anyway.

We have a young girl at church who does the same thing now, and she will even play cards in the ladies room!

As far as Dr Dobson- we have a tape of his at church where he discusses women's issues, including menstruation. Like he speaks from experience!!!???!! I take him with a grain of salt.

[Jackie]

Personally, I would NEVER allow a child to stay home from church. If he can't stay in the service by himself, he would be sitting right next to me and his dad. (And yes, we DID do that with DSS!) I know you think Dr. Dobson knows nothing, which is too bad. You are missing out on a lot. I agree that you should NEVER accept what ANYONE says blindly, but consider the words to see what truth there might be in them. I have found Dr. Dobson to be, for the most part, a man of integrity and wisdom. How many of us go to OB/GYNs that are male? They have no more practical "experience", either.

[becky]

Oh, I went to a male for ob/gyn for years, but then I realized he cannot understand cramps, menstrual flow, discharge... you get my drift. A female ob/gyn experiences these things. I never knew I had a tipped womb until I started seeing a female gyn. It's my opinion that men should be barred from that profession, just as women should be barrred from treating male issues.

Jackie, what can Dr Dobson possibly know about monthly cycles?

[Brooke]

Hmmmmm....back to the issue at hand :wink: ......

Jackie, I am much like you. I did just that last night. I made him sit right next to me during choir practice. At our former church I didn't allow him to go to Awana for the last couple months because of the group dynamics (different story).

Bringing Up Boys helped me a lot. It made me see what being a boy is all about because I have no idea what that is like. I want him to grow into a respectfull as well as respectable man. My dh has not been a good role model over ds's years. Dh has a "nobody's gonna tell me what to do" mentality.....no wonder where the issue originated :roll: . Anyway, I pray for ds (and dh) but I am so worn out spiritually lately. I have also come to the conclusion that I can't force ds to care about scripture. I have my own parenting issues to face....I respect authority, so when I am the authority I demand obedience and get frustrated when I can't force obedience, especially where attitude is concerned.

Ds is a gifted actor, too. So like last night I really thought he was feeling sick so I had him lay down in a pew toward the back so that the choir wouldn't make his supposed headache worse.....blah, blah, blah.....you know the rest of the story. He is good at manipulating reactions from people by acting (convincingly I might add) to provoke the reaction he wants. Unfortunately I have seen him on more than one occasion fake repentance. That is what scares me the most. He has the ability to seem like he cares about the things of the Lord when I don't necessarily know if he does or not. I feel like I am dealing with a teenager WAY before my time. I talk to him like I would counsel an adult, and he understands perfectly, but he is nonetheless covertly rebelling. I don't want to lose him!

Staying home from church will never be a possibility, and we don't even allow Jr. Church because we have to constantly keep ds with us or we get the same problems with authority. He is aware that if his attitude changes he will have more freedoms. He knows that 5yo dd is allowed to go to other areas of the church without us because we trust her. We have had so many problems with ds that we don't trust him to obey us when we aren't watching.

Are we stuck in a vicious cycle here? I am wondering if our parenting is perpetuating the problem????? Any ideas? I am more than willing to change my parenting style, which I have already to some extent when I am afforded a glimpse into what kind of parenting ds needs. Sorry to ramble. I just feel so unequipped to handle this.

[becky]

My opinion is, I can't force Kevin to go each Sunday. The yelling that results is not worth it, plus we have neighbors to be considerate of. Remember, your kids are younger than Kevin and I'm not going to ruin my worship by arguing with him.
I also am not comfortable doing this, but I know he's in God's hands and God will bring him back in someday.

[Jackie]

Becky, I meant no criticism. We all need to pick our battles carefully, and not one of us would pick the exact same ones. Yes, my kids are younger, but my DH had custody of his two boys, now ages 22 and 24. They are still being rebellious, but since they no longer live here, we no longer have to deal with it. Also, it depends on how much support your DH gives you. It is almost impossible for you to "do battle" on an issue if your DH doesn't consider it an issue, also.

As far as Dr. Dobson goes, my midwife is about 27 years old and single. She has had never been pregnant, and knowing her as I do I assume she is also still a virgin. Yet I trust her judgement in such matters. Dr. Dobson may not have the personal experience, but he does have a wife and daughter. He is not totally ignorant, nor do I believe him unsympathetic.

[becky]

Okay, you got it perfectly Jackie. Can you see yourself getting up in the older boys' faces about going to church? It's not worth ruining your worship time, and that's exactly what it does.
I used to hate to see Sunday come because I'd sit there fuming for nearly the whole hour. What good is that? It certainly isn't respectful to God. He'll bring Kevin in someday. For now Kevin will just play out his teen angst each week.
To me, this is Satan trying to interfere with our worship. I need to trust that God will change Kevin, and I do.
Remember, 'my rules my house', so it's not like he lives a carefree life here!
Now, when Kevin was your kids' ages he had a class to go to, so he was kept busy.
I wish they'd develop a class for the older teens during worship, but it'll never happen.

It's also true that the husband needs to step in, too. Mine doesn't and he could just as easily never gop back. He goes to shut me up.

About Dr Dobson- if his wife or daughter would write something, I might read it.
I'm not putting down all his work, but on female issues he can't be taken as an authority.
Your midwife might be a virgin, but she still has more common sense about what's going on than a male would.
I wish you could have seen the gruff doctor on duty when I went in to have Jeanne.
I couldn't stay out of the bathroom, and the nurses explained that was a normal thing, that my body was preparing for birth. Making room, I'd say!!
Well this doctor, a man, did everything but stick his head into the bathroom, yelling at me to submit to an internal exam before my gyn got there, to determine dilation.
I finally told him I couldn't help it and he would just have to wait until all this elimination stopped, or take his chances!!!
I was so embarassed, and this male doctor was a jerk. The nurses- females- told me to take my time and ignore him, but as soon as I feel able let them know when I can be examined.
See, that more understanding attitude was because of them being female, maybe even from giving birth themselves. The male doctor might have the mechanics down pat, but the other issues with childbirth he cannot. He just can't.

[Brooke]

I realize that my comments might not be welcome, Becky, but as the OP I feel like I'm entitled to some degree.....

Have you ever stepped back and looked at your family's issues from a third party point of view? I don't believe we should ever assume that the Lord will bring someone back into a building and that will be what "cures" the son's condition. Going into the sanctuary should never, EVER outway the heart issues of your son who was hanging out in the bathroom. He seems to have needed someone to be Jesus to him, not act like he is cramping your worship style. God tells us if we bring our gift (our worship) to Him and have an issue with our brother (or in this case a son) we should leave our gift right there and deal with our relationship FIRST. We are not able to worship HIm in an honoring way if we have these other things going on.

Now before you bite me back, please know that I am shaking as I am typing. My heart is literally aching right now with a knot in my throat. My issues with my son are tearing me apart and I am looking at Kevin, which could be my son years down the road, and I don't want that for my son. I don't want that for anyone's son. I don't have anything to offer as a solution other than prayer (obviously, or I wouldn't have started this thread), but I can't imagine having that attitude when my son is outside the sanctuary spiritually dying.

[becky]

And my viewpoint is this- I am not showing him Jesus by yelling and screaming every Sunday PLUS that's not good for Jeannie to see and hear.
I'm not showing our neighbors Jesus when they hear us arguing.( our whole house shares a wall with two apartments) We have new neighbors next door. What if God is working on them to seek out a church if they haven't already and they hear us each week? What godly example is that?
YES I DO believe God will work on Kevin's heart and bring him back. His gentle persuasion is far better than my big obnoxious mouth. If I follow your thinking I would never go myself, because I would get sick of watching Kevin, wondering where he went THIS time. I certainly can't chase him out of the men's room.
So, yes I will continue like I am.
This is a Christian house where a lot of things aren't tolerated, so he might sit it out each week, but he is certainly not living a heathen lifestyle.
I do not think he is 'cramping' my worship style, but like I stated before, what respect am I showing God during that time if I'm sitting there fuming, in a bad mood and not really listening because I'm mentally rehashing the bickering of the morning?

I'm not taking offense to any of these comments because you girls know what works atyour house and I know what works here.

[Brooke]

I guess what I was trying to get to in my last post (that went astray due to emotions) is that the place to begin is not even with your son. It's with your yelling and screaming. That doesn't have to be part of our communication. Instead of letting him to himself or whatever else you are doing to "avoid" that behavior of yelling matches, just stop yourself from doing it. You are the adult.

In our home certain behavior isn't tolerated either, but that goes for the grown-ups, too. If I blow my top, which I have in the past, I am convicted so much about it that I can't do much else until I reconcile the relationship with the person I blew up at. That's scriptural. It's not a matter of what works, or what I feel like is "working" in my house. It's a matter of "this is the way God made us to function and there is no getting around it".

[Kathe]

I've donned the sackcloth AND I'm sitting in ashes so NO ONE bite me PLEASE ...

I'll start by admitting I have ZERO clue as to the desired outcomes of AWANAS (I didn't say I have ZERO clue as to what it IS, though), or to what faith(s) it caters, etc. I can say the same of Sunday School and whatever other child-related programs are offered through a church.

What I DO have a clue about is the pattern set forth in the scriptures, which encourages families to worship together. I don't understand why there are youth groups and other such SEPARATE events sometimes WHILE the parents are listening to a service.

That's not how it was done in Israel. “Congregate the people, the men and the women and the little ones and your alien resident who is within your gates, in order that they may listen and in order that they may learn..." (Deut 31:12). That's how the people gathered ... as families ... and worshiped together. They were all present for the reading of the law AND during the many festivals.

As for the type of instruction that sounds God's truths into the heart of little ones; that, too, was done on the family level. Parents set the example first though, as shown in Deut. 6:6-9. I won't quote it here, but it's a powerful passage. God's word must be on our own hearts first, and then we inculcate that in our children of ANY age. The passage speaks of various occasions and implies that there are always teachable moments and opportunities to plant a love of God's word in their impressionable hearts. With such a positive and gentle structure, there's no need for classes taught by someone ELSE. It's the role of parents.

Might it be the case that the children would respond better if not sent off to these classes, separate from the family? As homeschoolers we know all too well the impact of the family home on a child's learning. The same is true of religious instruction. Jesus also did not send the children off. I seriously question the impression that gives them ... and the message they're being sent.

I just can't imagine worship without my children, or sending them off trusting that someone else will adequately instruct them in God's word. Perhaps the ones that seem to be "bucking" don't understand why THEY have these extra things to attend, when the parents don't, as if the parents aren't in need of it. In Israel, the adults AND the children heard the law read together.

This is purely an objective view, which I have because I don't know the individual mandates of these classes. Therefore I scrutinize such classes as a whole separate from the issue of weighing their individual purposes.

I'm just suggesting that maybe the children are being sent the wrong message, and that worship as families at all times is more unifying.

[Brooke]

I'm in agreement, Kathe, for the most part. I'm not a big "Jr. Church" person. However, there are those times when kids need to be responsible to some extent for their own spiritual lives. My ds is old enough to chose joy and obedience while he is being instructed. In the case of Awana on Sunday evening, I was with my kids until the last half hour because of choir....and incedentally, ds got to go to that with me :wink: and he still bucked cuz it wasn't what he really wanted, which was to leave because he had embarrassed himself (his words, not mine).

Thanks for the insight. I know several families who don't use the Sunday School program at thier churches either for the reasons you mentioned. Our Sunday Schools are actually small groups and my whole family enjoys it very, very much. We instruct at home daily in the way that most families would utilize Sunday School classes (Bible stories and object lessons), so the small groups are much more about forming relationships with believers. Although, I will say that we have attended churches where we didn't participate in Sunday School because it was more like a "class", which I don't subject my family to.

Ds has a problem with authority when that person is expecting him to participate in something he doesn't want to do at the time. He didn't want to sing, so instead of not singing he is disrespectful by walking out, he then lies to his Leader saying he is sick, and then deceives me by saying he will lay down in the pew when he actually got up and ran around. I don't think in this case it has to do with the instruction of someone other than his parents.

UPDATE.......ds has since appologized to me for his behavior and stated that he in fact really likes our new church. He is just not looking forward to going back into the group that he "embarrassed" himself in front of.....oh, the lessons that will be learned 8) .

[Kathe]

Of course he's embarrassed, and it's EXCELLENT that he apologized.

However, the issue remains ... why won't he accept authority and even worse, why did he lie???

I wish I had an answer for you. I know, though, that you've taught him to pray, and that's his first best step.

[becky]

I know the yelling and screaming is wrong. Can you imagine how long it took to get to that point or how high the level of my aggravation must have been for me to get to that point? I apologized later, but each week the cycle would start over. It didn't get better until I let go and let God handle it.

[zsmomma]

Has anyone read the Power of a Praying Parent by Stormie O'Martian? That book was excellent for me. Along with the Power of a Praying Wife. When I read the wife one I realized that God was changing me. It was not all my hubbys problems it was me too. Then we had kids and I had a quick temper, get mad and stay mad. I started reading this book and now I am fairly mellow. I hardly yell and normally that is more of a theres a car coming get out of the road type deal. ( Good books thats all :) )

My parents took the stand of God will bring our daughter back to Him when He is ready. Well we are all still waiting. My sister is going to be 33 this year and could care less about religion of any sort. I do not know what the answer is, I really do not. I know that God knows all and everything is in His hands. But in my mind if there is not a hey we care about you and want you to learn about God that kid will take it as my parents do not care and God does not care about me. That is what my sister says. She still feels this way. Again, I do not know the answer but there has to be one somewhere.

As for Dr. Dobson, I have heard that the book Bringing up boys is excellent and am waiting for my cousing to finish it so I can borrow it. Ob/gyns, well I have a set of 5 drs. 4 are male, 1 female. The female dr. is the rudest dr. I have met in my life. If I say that I am having a hard time with a period she tells me to suck it up that they are not that bad. The guys on the other hand have been excellent. We found out why I have hard times and that woman had nothing to say or do about it. So my thought there is, it all depends on the dr. There are good male and female docs out there it just depends on which one ya get!

[OKmom]

Pray, Pray, Pray

When my husband stopped coming to church, I realized (after many heated debates) that the best thing I could do was turn it over to God---a hard thing, but the best thing. I remember asking my husband why he didn't want to come and he would say, "The harder you push me, the more I'll push back. Let me come back when I'm ready." I took it to heart and a friend directed me to Power of a Praying Wife. I made sure that he knew that I was reading it to let him know how much I was concerned.

I'll keep you in my prayers as you're going through this roller coaster of emotion.

[Brooke]

Thanks, ladies, for the support. I tend to get a bit more emotional a certain few days of the month and that, of course, was when all this hit. One thing that the Lord reminded me of is to check to see if my kids' love tanks are full. I realized that in the middle of our move and adjustment, ds hasn't had much one-on-one time with me or dh. That is his primary love language. I immediately asked him if he wanted to go shopping with me--which he jumped on. We had a really great time and ds's spirits just soar when he gets what he needs from me. Now I'm crying happy tears.... :cry: :D . He was so happy cuz I gave him the list and he got everything we needed. While I was browsing the clearance bin he actually was flying solo and asking store clerks when he couldn't find something. What a great kid! He's 8 and wants to be 20 so bad. Another thing that challenges us is just that--he's more mature than what society allows him to be so when I am comfortable with certain parameters they are not always socially acceptable, or legal :roll: for a kid his age. I could spend a while just talking about how his mental age affects his life, but that is a whole different thread.

Anyway, we're making progress a day at a time. We don't mature physically overnight, and our spiritual life is a direct parallel.

[Brenda]

I'm going to deviate from the origin of the post (I think) and follow some comments that I've seen in the last couple posts...

When there becomes a Spiritual battle in the home - whether with a child or your spouse, I'm learning (yes, my home too) to keep my tongue tame (as hard as it is somedays) and to give it all to God - He knows my heart and knows how to fix the problem. All I can do to bring the person(s) around is give it over to God, lead by example and pray for them. This is not easy to do - I don't understand why they don't want to have the same relationship with Him that I have (a no brainer if you ask me). Harping does absolutely no good to them - in the end it might actually push them further away. When others see your fruits, they will come. Sometimes being a silent witness is more effective than being the nagging mother/wife (have been told that).

When it comes to yelling at a child in the "heat of a moment" hoping depserately to "get through" all it serves to do is make the 'adult' look like a fool. The second you raise your voice at a child, you've lost the arguement or whatever else it is (takes a long time to figure that one out) and ultimately given your child the upper hand (assumably you didn't want the child to have in the first place). Sad isn't it?

Brooke, maybe Brandon is testing the waters right now to see how much he'll be able to get away with and how others interact with him ("Hmmmm, I wonder if I can run like a mad man here like I used to when we went to the other church?"). This has been a major move for all of you and it will take some time to get back on track - unfortunately I can say that from experience (we're still adjusting from all the mortgage stress that I tried too hard to handle myself and it's harder to make a come back than it was to get into this mess in the first place). It will take time, but I believe he will come around, but he's going to make the most of it for a while.

As for the Power of a Praying Wife and the Power of a Praying Mom - I have to say I agree... I read the wife book and am working in it again - this time as a devotional way of doing it. Then I will do the child one (I pray for all of them now, but will read what the book has to say).

In the meantime, I continue to pray for you guys too - that this all turns out for His glory without too many bumps or scrapes along the way (and preferably no 2x4 in the head). It's amazing how God will use my past mistakes and lessons I learned to help others.

Hugs,
Brenda

[Kathe]

I think there's a difference between "yelling" at a child and "raising your voice" to a child.

I'm going to have to disagree that "the SECOND you raise your voice to a child you've lost the argument."

The OP was describing an eight year old who breaks forth against authority. I'd raise my voice on THAT one.

I've witnessed a number of my peers who believe in that whole "reasoning" thing when it comes to handling their children and their feelings. Oddly enough, theirs are the kids I see raising their hands poised to hit their parents. They are also the children who I see lashing out physically against peers AND adults, and they exhibit the behaviours that betray other serious issues. The worst I've seen was one reasoning parent with a FIVE YEAR OLD who still wasn't toilet trained because the mother would not be forceful with the child. Yup ... she would hide behind a door and crap her pants and never be spoken to harshly. That's "reasoning with a child" for you.

The parameters must be clear. It's an excellent balance when you are your child's friend, but they also respect your authority. I know I've raised my voice plenty and my kids do NOT view me as a fool ... they understand the parameters.

[Brooke]

I'll just jump in here quickly. I think Brenda meant when you raise it out of anger and frustration. I don't think she meant to be monotone. We obviously inflect our emotion into our voice and my kids know when I'm serious, and I might even be angry when I raise it. I think Brenda was referring to flying off the handle as opposed to being stern and forceful and remaining in control of those emotions.

[Kathe]

That's why I said there's a difference between "yelling" and "raising your voice."

Nevertheless, the context in which it was said included "arguments or whatever else it is."

I just don't argue. I state my position and a person is free to agree or disagree, whether it's my husband or anyone else. I especially would not be engaged in a back-and-forth type debate with a child ... mine or anyone else's. There should be no arguments with a child ... THAT's when they have the upper hand.

I guess that might sound unyielding with only superficial consideration. When you think about it, though, a loving parent sets parameters because they are of benefit to the child; not simply because they feel like being restrictive. That's just not kind.

So, if the boundaries are set with the right motive, then there is no argument. It is a "do it or else" type scenario which parents have full right to exact. Of course, the degree of what constitutes "or else" has to be within reason. The other case, where a parent is just being restrictive without a real basis for it will frustrate the child because the boundaries are unclear. That includes stuff like saying "no" to everything or seemingly so without giving a decent reason why. Any child is going to crumble under such conditions.

I guess my previous post should have said something more like, "if you're arguing with a child to begin with, that's the problem; regardless of whether you're yelling or simply raising your voice."

[becky]

Well, you girls tell me what better way I can handle this, if you feel you have an answer.
Before I let go, I would tell him to be ready to go Sunday a.m. Sunday a.m. I would call him with plenty of time to get ready and he would just refuse.
The boy was 14 or so when he stopped going, maybe older, so I couldn't very well dress him and carry him out to the car.
He's 18 now, 6'5" so I still am not able to carry him out.

I still stand by my belief that God will bring him back. Plus, he hasn't traded his church upbringing for sinful living. He's not here smoking dope or watching porn while we're gone.

Someone said pick your battles. I'm cool with that, especially since he's not doing anything bad in place of not being in church.

I also still say by you all having younger kids it is a different story. Now, if any of you think you can do things differently, be my guest. I'm anxious to see what you come up with.

[OKmom]

You're so right that it's different with younger kids. The best reference I have is with my husband. His parents (his whole family) quit going when he was 14. He was still a good kid, had good moral values, etc..... but they didn't go to church. When he turned 16 and was old enough to drive himself to church, he ended up getting a job. Of course, all high school kids have to work Sundays. He totally got out of the 'habit' (for lack of a better term) and it lasted a long time.

When we were married, I tried to get him to come to church with me, and he had no interest. In his mind, he was a good person, had a good prayer life, lived a moral life and he'd been fine all those years without attending church. In fact, the first 7 years of our marriage, I went to church alone, and then with the kids after we had them. He never discouraged me to go, in fact he helped get the kids ready for me, but he didn't want to go. If I pushed, he resented it and told me that pushing him would just make him more obstinate.

Now, I'm proud to say that my husband is back in the church. I wish I could take the credit for it, but I know it was God's hand (with a lot of prayers). He had to find his way. He's very involved now, teaching and singing at every opportunity. He really regrets those wasted years, now. But we've decided that instead of dwelling on them, he can use that time as an example to others who give the same excuses he did at the time. He is ashamed of his abandoning the church for 16+ years, but is so thankful that he found his way back.

I guess my point is that at this point in his life, you can't force him to do anything he's not ready to do. I made sure that my husband knew that I prayed for him to come back to church, everyday. It took seven years into our marriage for him to come back....but it's all in God's time and not mine.

I'll keep your family in our prayers as you're going through this. I pray that God's strength will stay with you and guide you through these next steps you need to take.

[Kathe]

Actually, Becky, I wasn't even thinking of your situation with Kevin when I posted any of what I said. However, "if the shoe fits." I mean you DID engage us collectively by saying something like "if you girls think you can do better ..... ."

I guess I won't know if I've done better until my oldest is 18. I'm not going to sit idly by, though, even IF he starts giving me guff ... and he is 14 now. I may not have an 18 year old and, yes, SOME of my kids are young, but I do have two teenageers, which accounts for something. Before I know it, I'll have FIVE teenagers.

Never am I going to argue with them. Never am I going to step aside from my stance as I stated in an earlier post. We've emailed personally long enough for you to know I'm militant about things. That's because there ARE many aspects of parenting which require the "do it or else" approach ... and I'm sticking to that.

They just know that the "or else" includes consequences that will significantly change their pleasantly simple little worlds. I'm quite sure I'm their best advocate and that's not something they want to toss away flippantly. In other words they don't tick me off too often because they don't like the results.

The bottom line is that they don't run this house. We are a family and we do things together and no one stays behind ... not from outings, not from worship, not from work. We expect them to roll up their sleeves and dig in, if that's what is going on. If they don't, there are always consequences. We also make sure they share in the joys, whatever they may be.

Sorry if you took it personally. I tend to deal with the comments of the OP as well as any rebuttals I may disagree with. That was the intent of my post. Besides, girl, you know that if I had something to say to you, I'd say it in email so :P

[Jackie]

Yes, there is a difference between "yelling" and "raising your voice". One of the best books I'd read while a "real" teacher had to do with Assertive Discipline. First of all, I DON'T agree with everything about assertive discipline...I saw how it was being used across the board in one school district I subbed in, and it was a MESS! But it DID say that you state your expectations to the child, and refuse to be drawn into an arguement. They will try to get fighting about everything BUT the issue. For example..."You must go to church" (since that's what we were discussing). The kid can argue about how none of his friends go to church, how you don't "trust him" to stay alone, etc. All those things are BESIDE THE POINT. What other kids do are irrelevent to what you expect of your kids. And if the kid gets you to say "Yes, I do trust you! Why do you say that?" then the whole subject has changed and he has distracted you and put you on the defense. So the best line is to keep coming back with "Doesn't matter. You still have to go to church." They refer to it as the "broken record", because you just keep calmly repeating your demands. Then you also state the consequences of NOT complying, in the way of a choice. I've done that with homework. "You need to do your math. If you don't want to do it now, that's OK. That means you chose to do tonight around 6:00" To which I was told, "But soccer practice is at 6:00!" "Well, I guess if that's your choice, you'll need to call Coach and explain to him why you won't be at practice tonight. But of course, it's up to you......"

I think I said before that we have the verse "Do all things without grumbling or disputing". That is our bottom line whenever the kids start to argue with me. Again, my kids are younger, and are still in the "training" stage. Hopefully, when they're older, they will know the boundaries well enough to not push them too hard.

As far as church goes, the rule in our house is that you go. Period. DH and I have discussed his boys staying with us again. He has told the oldest that if he comes and lives here (he's over 20!) he would be REQUIRED to go to church. If he's not willing to do that, he can't stay here. Period. He was with us for a while without that rule; DH said that was a mistake on his (DH's) part. Becky, I feel a lot of the problem at your place is your husband's unwillingness to stand with you. While I feel church shouldn't be a choice, as long as your DH is indifferent to it, you cannot possibly win. As a result, I think you're better off "letting go and letting God", as they say.

[becky]

ET TU, Kathe? LOL!!!
I wasn't taking anything personally that anybody said. I'm just listening.
Jackie brought up a point, though. Her older boys can't live home ifg they refuse to go to church. Does that mean I should consider putting Kevin out?

[Jackie]

I'm not sure that's your decision to make, Becky, but your husband's. And I also know that it is a decision that needs to be made with lots of prayer, and perhaps advice from Godly people that know your family and your son. Either way, it's very difficult and painful. And it wasn't my intent at all to tell you to kick your son out. I was stating what my DH has decided concerning his sons.

[becky]

But what I'm asking is- is that how far it should go? If an older child refuses to go to church should it come to the point where you tell them to leave?
What if they have nowhere to go? Do you put them in the street because they won't go to church?

[blessedmom]

Becky,
The things I would be more concerned about (regarding your son) are whether he still reads God's Word, whether he still prays, how his relationship with God has been, and how his attitudes & behaviors are. Going to church doesn't make you a Christian! I believe having a fellowship with other believers is important; however, not going to church is not the end of the world :). Not having relationship with Christ is!!! (in my opinion) Worshipping God and studying God's Word should be parts of our daily living, not just on Sundays. Living a Godly life, in my opinion, is more important than a perfect church attendance.

Anyway, I think it's important for you to keep praying for him, show him Christ's love & compassion, Christlike attitudes, and share with him what God has been doing in your life. Keep being salt and light to him. He is reading you (whether you realize or not).

Have you ever read "Rebel with a Cause" by Franklin Graham? Even Billy Graham had a son who rebelled (hard to believe...but it's true). Ruth Bell Graham wrote a book called "Prodigals and Those Who Love Them." It's not always parents' faults. Each person has a choice to follow God or to reject Him. He/she has a choice to submit his/her life to God or to live a carefree (miserable in soul), self-satisfying life without God. I'll certainly be praying for you, your husband, and Kevin.

[Jackie]

Each of us have our own lines drawn in the sand. No one can tell you where yours should be drawn. There has to be a balance between mercy and justice. What is totally unacceptable for one child might be seen an improvement for another. And sometimes it IS NECESSARY to let them live on the streets, hard as that is. It's called TOUGH LOVE. And understand, I'm NOT saying that's the best course for youl; I don't live in your situation, so I don't know. My stepsons have had it happen, totally by THEIR OWN choice. They can stay with us or their grandma any time they want, BUT only if they follow the rules, church being only one of them. When they left here, they first went to Grandma (who felt that they just needed "love and understanding", because they had such a "wicked step-mom".) Boy, did she learn fast it wasn't all ME!!! Granma is still trying to make their life as comfortable as possible. Personally, I feel they won't turn around until they hit rock-bottom. Look at the Prodigal Son. It took him living in a pig stye before he had a change of heart. Unfortunately, with my MIL that would neverhave happened, as she would have refused him the "opportunity" of pig-stye living. ANd sometimes that's what it takes. We sometimes need to allow it to happen OUT OF LOVE.

Also, too, I think the problem in your home is NOT church attendance, but the lack of respect for you and possibly for his dad. That should NEVER be tolerated. I know you have no respect for Dr. Dobson, but he (and others!) say there are only two offenses in children that require spanking...defiance and disrespect. Allowing those two sins to continue breeds rebellion. Is church the only "sticking point"? If it is, then I wouldn't be in a hurry to "kick him out". Or is he rebellious about other things, too? Is he constantly "in your face" when you ask him to pick up, or ignores curfews, or goes out constantly without telling you where? How about lying to you about where he is? (That was Jason's big one!!! He'd call, claiming it was from work, never mind our his friend's name on ourCaller ID. BUSTED!!! That was the one that upset Grandma the most.) As blessedmom stated, not attending church doesn't mean he's become a "real heathen". and can often be worked around. The rebellion is a different matter. God equates it to witchcraft (1 Samuel 15:23).

No one has any easy answers. Again, Blessedmom tells talks about the need to pray. That's sometimes ALL you can do. God will give you wisdom when to act and when to show patience.

[becky]

Jackie I never said I don't respect Dr Dobson, I just don't think he's an authority on feminine issues. Joyce Meyer, yes. Him, no.


Blessedmom, I think I saw the Grahams on Larry King talking about that book, and the trials they went through. Kids are kids, no matter who the parents are!!

[Jackie]

JOYCE MEYERS!!!! Well, isn't it great God made us different, LOL?

[becky]

What's wrong with Joyce Meyer?

Many years ago I saw her in person. I was very disappointed in how she pushed for offering. She laid it on thick for almost 1/2 hour, asking for money.
I do like to hear her speak.

[Jackie]

Honestly, I have never heard her speak. But what little I know about her can be summed up in what you said. My impression is that money's her big push. For me, no matter how "right on" her message is, if moeny comes across as the motive my mind tneds to simply shut down.

[Kathe]

It's interesting that the prodigal son was mentioned. There are some other vital aspects to that parable that can't be ignored.

First, HE left and squandered what he had. He wasn't booted out.

Second, the stance of the father was always eager expectation that he would return. The fact that he caught sight of him "while he was yet a long way off" shows he was always *looking* for his return. (Luke 15:20).

Third, there is no doubt the son had not done a complete 180 degree turn-around before he returned to his father yet he was received with mercy and tenderness. The scriptures say "when he came to his senses." Such a change does not immediately produce all the right works but it does reflect the heart's desire to do so. . It is, therefore, a gesture of repentence that our forgiving Father looks for and blesses.

I'm not getting the "tough love" aspect at all in that parable.

In any case, I am totally lost as to how this post turned into a Becky/Kevin thing, instead of addressing the concerns of the OP and her eight-year-old who has been described as against authority, even lying about it. How is it that Kevin is suddenly worse ???

And what's up with all these people that are being suggested as authorities for advice. I don't know who this Dr. Dobson is, or what Focus on the Family stands for, but I would not subscribe to the philosopies of any man for my insights on God's word.

Becky ... imho they're right about one thing, at least. Prayer. But you already knew that. Keep Kevin close and be a good example yourself. Allow him to see that you're a better person because of the power of God's word. Demonstrate that you dislike his choice(s) ... not him as a person ... by showing him a better way. Praise him for the good that he does, as I'm sure you already do. Acknowledge any false messages he may be being sent, and admit your own contributions to those false messages. If it applies, explain why things are the way they are between you and Dean (even while you're effecting changes), rather than expecting everyone to just accept it and "work with it," if that applies.

With all that said, it's exhausting to do the right thing when no one around you cares to. Yet, Jesus did it. Yes, he was perfect and we're not, but we have a "helper" in the holy spirit, which we can pray for in abundance (John 14:25, 26).

[Jackie]

Kathe, I feel that, like the Prodigal Son, my older boys CHOSE to leave. They were told what the expectations were, and decided to take off instead. We didn't stop them from doing that. Like the father, we are waiting expectantly for them to return. (No, we DON'T expect them to ever move back in with us, LOL! But we ARE expecting that change of heart-attitude, the repentence you refere to.) In the mean time, we pray for them daily. If they should call, we talk with them and welcome them to visit. They both know they are welcome to come for dinner whenever they wish, though I WOULD rather have advance notice, because I want to make sure we have enough and I'd cook something I knew they especially liked. Jason is welcome to bring his live-in girlfirend with him; we include her at holidays and I will buy her a present at Christmas. My husband even goes out of his way to pick them up and bring them if they need it. About the only thing we WON'T do is help pay for things. We've done that in the past, and DH finally decided that it helped them to continue in an inappropriate lifestyle. But they are young adults, and like all of us, must live with the consequences of their decisions. You are absolutely right that a change of heart attitude doesn't mean perfection, nor do we expect it to. But for my boys, the repentence isn't there.

I also feel that there is nothing wrong with getting insigts in God's word from other people. You are right in that we cannot DEPEND on others for all our insights, but we CAN glean wisdom from others. We are constantly gleaning wisdom and insight and wisdom from one another here! Nor should we take any one person's word blindly, but check what is being said against the Scriptures.

[Kathe]

My comments were not directed at your situation with your step-sons, Jackie. Besides, at their ages, to even enter your home and not show respect for your rules is simply rude. It's beyond a disciplinary situation.

I was referring to the concept of tough love in reference to the question Becky raised as to whether it is necessary to go THAT far.

The parable, which Jesus used to highlight God's profound readiness to forgive, does not seem to suggest such extreme measures are necessary. Of course, it's different when a person living in the home is disruptive to the point where the spirituality of the home in general is compromised. That requires action.

In Becky's case, it's not Kevin that is compromising the spirituality of their home. She and I have emailed personally for long enough that I can confidently make that assessment.

[Brooke]

Kathe, I went back and reread the first few posts. I thought Becky volunteered her situation to be discussed. I tried to pull it back at one point and it kept going back to that and finally I couldn't take it anymore with all the comments so I posted what I thought about the situation.

When someone comes out against several things I just posted about on a forum, that person should expect a response to their comments. Becky has been bantering with the best of them, so it doesn't give the impression she is upset about the way the conversation has changed direction from my OP.

I would've liked to have the post stay focused on ways I can get through to my own son, but if someone else can get some help for their situation, that's fine, too. What I really, really don't want is for second parties to set the stage for a "stop picking on so-and-so" thing. Whenever that happens the thread goes incredibly bad. I think that all of us who are participating here are able to fend for ourselves. If someone doesn't want the participate further it is their decision to continue posting or not.

[Kathe]

Well, thanks for the correction, which I've come to expect from you. :roll:

I have not fostered a "stop picking on so-and-so" atmosphere. In fact, if anything, I was respecting YOU as the OP by highlighting that this thread was intended for help for your query, but was diverted to another poster. I'll think twice the next time :!:

Becky won't at all mind me saying that she doesn't need our help if she is feeling picked on. She could tear us all a new one collectively, if adequately provoked and if she chose to do so. Fortunately, both "if's" have not occurred. :D

As to the point of Becky not saying anything if she's upset ... would it really matter anyway ??? As a point of general concern, anyone who DOES have a problem with a thread and dares to say so, bears the consequences. Usually, someone snitches to Amanda so that the thread is edited, split or otherwise censored. Personally, I don't enjoy censorship. It's one of the reasons I've avoided this place. You just can't have someone, or a few, running to the moderator every time they don't like what is being said, or think it should be moved, or whatever. It's happened more than once.

If we all did that, poor Amanda would be running through a maze, reorganizing. It's really not a place for EVERYONE's free discussion in such a case. It becomes a place organized in the stylings of a few, who either allow or disallow the free speech of others. Like lambs to the slaughter, the reaction of the provoked is taken out, but the attack is still there, which makes them look like the offender.

[Jackie]

Sigh......

Kathe, I didn't take any offense. Becky asked questions, I responded best I could with the info given. I tried to state again and again that I am NOT her, nor did I know all that went on and she should take my comments with a grain of salt, which I think she did. I feel that all the comments made by EVERYONE were done so with honest discussion, not telling anyone you MUST do this or anything of the sort. Nor do I feel it's digressed too much from the original topic. We are still discussing turning the heart of a child (or young person) back to the Lord and his family.

Kathe, you commented that Kevin is not compromising the spiritual quality of the home. From what Becky has posted here, I would question that. (And I meajn QUESTION, as in I don't know one way or the other!!!) Since you say the two of you have e-mailed back and forth on this, I will assume you know more than I do, and will trust your judgement on that. I simply was going on what was being posted here.

Brooke, sorry if I helped keep this conversation going in the wrong direction!

[Kathe]

What are you sighing for ??? I smell a deleted thread coming on. :roll:

To stand back and question Kevin just because he doesn't "go to church" is throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Someone already stated that "going to church" could be quite the empty gesture. In his current state, it would be.

The ladies here are always so quick to point out submission to the heads of their households. Why hasn't anyone duly implicated the head of Becky's household ??? I'm not defending her ... I'm being objective here since it's the best any one of us can do since we really don't "know" each other.

Crap flows downstream. Leadership is at the top. The math is simple.

[Jackie]

Well, I sure HOPE a deleted thread isn't coming on!!! I don't think anything inappropriate has been said by anyone to cause it to be so! I do believe I said (more than once!) that unless DH is willing to do something, there's little Becky ( or anyone in similar circumstances) can do. I believe whole-heartedly that discipline must come from the head. When Mom is "forced" to be the head because of Dad's unwillngness to do so (no criticisms meant on Moms for diong what Dad refuses to do!) it causes problems with authority and respect. I've also said that church attendance in itself isn't something to get too bent out of shape at, but that disrespect is. I sense a lot of disrespect from Kevin in what Becky has said, but I also have said that only she can determine if this is a base problem or not. Nothing I've said has been meant as an attack or criticism, nor has it been meant in a "this is what you must do" way, but only to explore possibilities.

[Kathe]

BECKY !!! Crawl out of your hole now before I drag ya out, girl !!!

Jackie ... when you said you would question my comment that Kevin is not seriously compromising the spirituality of the home, that pretty much takes the blame off the head, and puts it on Kevin. He's not overtly acting in a disrespectful way, generally speaking.

A husband's failure to lead is usually deliberate and damaging to everyone, a point on which we seem to agree.

[Brenda]

I'm learning to keep quiet! (Woohoo). I've wanted so much to jump in and add to this thread, but fearing I would only make matters worse, I kept my mouth closed (and I am doing the same thing now).

I think we can all learn from this thread (I hope that it isn't deleted). Each of us has a family - what works in one home, might not work in another - I have no idea what the dynamics are in individual homes and so the advice/opinion that I may offer may be irrelevant to individual people. You can use it or walk away from it - we all need to do that.

Brenda

[Jackie]

BECKY !!! Crawl out of your hole now before I drag ya out, girl !!!

Are you kidding? She doesn't want to get caught between our flying dukes, LOL! Love ya, Kathe!

[Brooke]

You know, Kathe, I don't mind constructive criticism at all. In fact, I am a person who appreciates it. I think that the eye rolling at me was uncalled for. I can be just as cynical as the next person, but not at the expense of a person. I think the thread after my last post demonstrates the point I was making about stepping in for someone else. And the cry out for Becky to join you is quite similar to pack behavior. You have knowingly said things you expect rebutals for and now you expect some help. You can't tell me that you didn't want Becky to get on here and deepen a division you seem to want to cause.

Now I know you are sure to get on here and say that is not at all what you were intending and that it implies some sort of deeply hidden, subconcious "thing" on my part to assume that is what you were trying to do. I've read these go rounds before, and obviously I've participated in the squabbles with you in the past or you wouldn't be rolling your eyes about it now. What is up with you? I haven't felt like lashing out for a long, long time on here, but comments like yours are just beyond my understanding.

If this gets pulled, it won't be from me. I'd just as soon let the record clearly show when the downward turn began.

Brenda, forgive me girl! I wish I could be as controlled as you are!

[Brenda]

Brooke - it isn't because I haven't wanted to say something. In fact, a couple times I have started to reply to the thread but deleted it before it was able to post because I could see the same trap - you know, where my comments are over analyzed and I get eaten alive! Different things motivate different people and the bickering here isn't one of my fortes.

Brenda
For the record - I won't be reporting this thread - if the thread is pulled, it won't be because I had anything to do with it either.

[Lornaabc]

Becky,
I have wondered this for some time now. Is Kevin's Dad your husband now or is it his stepdad?

[Amanda]

Just so you all know, no one reported the thread, but I happened across it and see that it has gone way off track. I haven't even read every word of this thread, but I do konw there is more than one issue being discussed and the thread has turned in a negative direction. If you want to discuss another topic, it really does need to be in another thread to best facilitate discussion... That way if someone wants to follow the original discussion, but doesn't enjoy spending their time sorting through arguments, they don't have to. I know that one topic often brings up another, but this is often where problems originate... When this happens, try mentioning the new idea that comes up, then open another thread to expand upon it.

In my own experience of using forums, what I hate most is receiving a reply notification in my inbox about a thread-gone-bad and feeling a knot come up in my stomach because I don't know if the reply is going to be something helpful and related to my original question, or if it's going to be a continuation of the bad.

This forum isn't run by the government, so the first amendment has no bearing on what's removed or reorganized. Anyone who reports a thread is not snitching, and I don't want it to be seen that way. I need to be aware of what's going on, and appreciate everyone's help in monitoring the forum. I created the forum for you all to use and enjoy, so I am open to your opinions about things. If you want to report a thread and indicate what you think should be done, I will take those things into consideration. (Just because it's reported doesn't mean it's going to be deleted.)

Anyway, I don't really know if the thread can be separated so that people can continue discussing their preferred topics, so I will close it. In this case, feel free to continue under an appropriate topic. I really don't see anything wrong with discussing disagreements as long as it remains respectful... I know it's hard not to get emotional about things, but try to attack the disagreement, not the person. 8)