I have a very special request [Archive]

Brooke

01-06-2005, 11:47 PM

Oh, Trish, my heart is aching for you ((((hugs)))))). Please pray before starting a new medication. Through my ds's own salvation and prayer, and through his growth in the Lord, and no doubt through bringing him home and out of public school, he no longer has any symptoms of ADHD and his moods have completely leveled off. Now he is just dealing with normal kid stuff.

Pray over her and with her. That is truely when my ds started to heal. 2Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. That is one of my favorite verses to pray over my son. He had struggled with this since about the age of 3 or 4. The Lord is our Creator and he knows exactly what the physiological needs of Vicki are. And He is greater than any of those needs or medications. I can't say enough what praying over our children can do, especially when their struggles are emotional.

Love ya, girl! The Lord will make sure that you know what direction you are to take!

HeidiPA

01-07-2005, 08:06 AM

Trish~
I cannot say that I understand what you're going through. But, I can certainly pray for you!
And, my advice is for you to continue homeschooling. That particular doctor may not agree with it; that's his opinion, not yours. It doesn't matter what he thinks; Vicky is your child, and you alone know what is best for her.
I, personally, would think that Vicky would have alot more trouble in a public school setting. Everyone is required to do the same thing at the same time, it doesn't matter if one child is distracted at that time- then they just miss what's going on. That's not fair! At home, you can work around her times of distraction, etc. You can work with her when she's in her best moods, and you know when those times are.
You're doing what's right. Like the other ladies said, don't be intimidated.
Heidi

Brenda

01-07-2005, 08:13 AM

Trish,
From experience the very best thing you can do for your daughter is to keep her home. Andrew is ADHD and ODD, has a couple other medical issues (and I'm sure if the doctor's looked close enough they'd find the mood disorders there too - I see it) and I put him back in public school this year - it is one of the hardest things I have ever had to do. While this school hasn't been as bad as last year was, we still have a lot of hurdles to overcome (the label being the absolute worst one). When something goes wrong in the school, I guarantee that if the public school knows your child had 'special needs', she'll be the first one picked out from the crowd - so sad but so true.

The public school is not "special needs" friendly. You won't find many doctors, peadiatrician's or child psychiatrist's who will support your decision to keep your child home and school them yourself - claiming the all too famous "they need to socialize" line (like you keep your kids in this sheltered little hole away from the rest of the world - give me a break). When Andrew started seeing the child psychiatrist it was very clear from day one that he thought Andrew should be in public school trying the socialization line with me (I came back and listed all the social things he was involved in to replace the environment at school.

On the same note, you have a huge support network of parents here who want to help out by being a shoulder to cry on and you will find a lot of Mom's (and Dads) who will support your decision to home school - even though Andrew has re-entered the doom and gloom of public school I think you are better off home schooling your daughter. I have no regrets about home schooling Andrew - just that my job didn't allow me to continue this year. I miss the interaction, but God had other plans for me for this year and maybe in the future it will be in His plans for me to resume, something I'll have to wait and see about.

You know your daughter like nobody else knows her (except of course God). Only you know what works and what doesn't. Don't let these 'professionals' intimidate you into doing something that just doesn't feel right in the pitt of your stomach. Go with your gut feeling - if it doesn't feel right, then it isn't.

I will be praying for you that the Lord will make His direction very clear to you (hope it isn't the 2x4 like I had to be hit with last winter).

In Him,
Brenda

What's in the Bible For Mother's has this to say about Homeschooling:

"The education of your children is in your hands. Only you know what is right for them."

Randy Rolfe says: The only reason we need teacher's for school-age children is to engage in that special activity of teaching - that is, instructing some twenty kids, all the same age, all doing more or less the same things when that's not what they want to be doing. A parent who just continues teaching the way she did before school age never has to change hats. Many caring parents today get deeply involved in the child's school activities. They think of home education simply as "eliminating the middleman".

Trish

01-07-2005, 08:33 PM

Thank you all very much for your prayers. I did tell the doctor yesterday that public school was a conviction that I can not get a peace about. I am not sending her to public school to be thrown into a system that will do more harm than good. Vicki's Pediatrician knows I homeschool. He agrees with me. He said that way she could get the one on one attention she needs. Her ADHD doctor knows she is a very active child with karate, swimming, play dates and coop with her homeschool group. She is a very social child. She doesn't handle a lot of social situations very well. There is no way on God's green earth I am going to give her to people who don't know her or understand her. I feel more than ever she needs to at home with me. Thanks again for the prayers and thanks for listening.

Anne

01-08-2005, 02:50 AM

Trish, I meant to write sooner. I've been praying for you. I'm glad you aren't going to let the ADHD dr. convince you to put your dd in PS. It's odd how some "professionals" often think they know it all, even though there is no way they know each patient well enough to "guide" parents to make such personal decisions as to where their child should learn. The best place for our kids is at home with us, especially kids facing extra challenges.
Blessings,

becky

01-08-2005, 07:39 PM

The labels will come from the parents of the classmates.

Kevin got treated so badly from other parents.

One had a child with Asperger's!
Wouldn't that be the pot calling the kettle black?

Trish

01-09-2005, 04:35 AM

That would be one thing that would upset me very badly. Children didn't ask to be that way. They can't help what has happened.

Anonymous

01-10-2005, 09:45 AM

Praying Trish~

Go with your heart even iIf you have to change doctors.
Group learning would be harder for her. That is what school is, learning in a group on a specific time schedule. She has friends and plenty of socialization.
Trust yourself and pray, knowing many of us are praying too.
Tammy

Amanda

01-11-2005, 06:17 PM

I just came across your message, so I'll give you the perspective from a teacher who has had kids with these types of problems and someone who understands bipolar disorder. (I assume this is the mood disorder since depakote is used as a stabilizer.) If not, maybe there are some parallels...

I had a child last year with Bipolar Disorder. She was first diagnosed with ADHD and depression, and I knew she had symptoms of BP the whole time. It runs in my family. I learned a lot about it during the time I had her. In fact, through my research trying to help her is when I realized I have a mild form of it. She had major problems the entire year. At first she was on an antidepressant. This made her agressive and violent. I'm sure she felt like she was going to explode with energy. Then, she went off of that and went on ADHD medication. It did seem to help somewhat, however, she still had a lot of self-control issues, and had problems with depression and thinking everyone hated her. She eventually was able to attend weekly group counseling to learn anger management/self control. This was offered through the school free of charge. She had been seeing a pediatrician the whole first half of the year, and got into a psychologist around Feb. That's when she got the official BP diagnosis (and he dropped the ADHD diagnosis because he only believed it was legitimate in rare circumstances). She went completely off meds because he believed in therapy only, and that medication was "masking" the real problem. (Whether this is correct or not, I don't know.) She continued to have problems the rest of the year. I have been in contact with her teacher this year, and she still has issues. If she yells/screams in class or throws things/hits, she goes to another classroom to do her work. She usually returns after a few hours when she's calmed down.

In my opinion, a child like this could be homeschooled just like any child. The issues I think people outside homeschooling have are that a child is not getting socialization or the parent doesn't provide the education the child needs. However, I know from your posts here that you all do a great job with those things. For a child with BP, they need even more focus on learning social skills since their brain works differently than other kids. With any mood disorder, they have to learn that sometimes their mood affects the way they see things in the world. This is not something a classroom teacher has time to focus on, whereas a homeschooling parent could. One very important thing I think to remember is that the illness should never be used as an excuse for bad behavior... Someone with it has to learn to recognize when the illness is effecting their behavior and learn self control. Many teachers don't know anything specific about BP like I do, plus teaching these skills requires 1 on 1 attention. Also, having a child like this really wears down a teacher, especially since there are an average of 5 other kids in the class causing equal disruption. I think it's great that you homeschool your child... It's got to be difficult to deal with 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

There are a lot of great resources online for childhood BP. I have a list of links I can post if anyone is interested.

Brenda

01-11-2005, 08:13 PM

Amanda,
First, thank you for sharing from a public teacher's perspective. I wish more teachers were able to look into the disorders BUT I do understand that it isn't always possible.

Second, I hope you didn't take offense to my "tainted" perception of the public school system :oops: but I was speaking from my own (horrible) experience last year. I have tried to leave the past in the past and to learn from it, but it's been a really bad experience for us and not easy to walk away from when your child is back into it (especially when the teachers continually bring it up).

We had an episode a couple days before the Christmas break, where Andrew 'snapped' and left the school and started to walk home (a two mile walk) while the principal drove behind him in her car and he ran in and out of traffic (and I was an hour away at work - I almost died when I got that phone call), we dealt with it (and kept Andrew home for a couple days) and today (3 weeks after the fact) his teacher is still dwelling on it, reminding us that it took place blah, blah, blah. (Really hard to move on when they don't give him a chance to 'redeem' himself).

It's nice to see that there are some teachers who take the time to look into disorders and want to go that extra mile to help the child (as taxing as it may be). THANK YOU! (Could you send some of them our way? :wink:

Brenda

Brooke

01-11-2005, 11:15 PM

I don't want to stray too far from the original post, here, but Brenda this (((hug))) is for you! We went through the "escape" from school thing, too, before bring Brandon home. If you want to talk, feel free to e-mail me. We just can't believe how much Brandon has grown! His relationship with the Lord is the key.

Trish

01-12-2005, 03:57 AM

Amanda thank you so much for your post. I really appreciate that you gave me a teacher's point of view.

Vicki's Pediatrician told me at her 5 year old check up that he thought that homeschooling was the best thing I could do for her. He said I could work around here energy.
Vicki is only 6 years old and she is doing 2nd grade work. I started her a year ahead to see if I could homeschool her. If I put her in public school they would put her in 1st grade again and then she would be bored. That would cause problems. She wouldn't want to sit there and learn what she already knows. I really can't see a child with ADHD and ODD and Mood Disorder sitting still in a classroom very long at at a time.She also has sleeping problems. She doesn't want to sleep and sometimes she doesn't go to sleep till late. I am scared she would fall asleep in class.

Vicki is on Ritalin 20mg and 1/4 tablet of Clonidine of a morning. She also takes 1/4 tablet Clonidine at lunch. She takes a whole tablet of Clonidine at night. Now she will be on Depakote. This poor child will be so mixed up till they can level her out that I can't confuse by sending her to public school. I know she will have things going through her mind. I feel she needs to home more now than ever.

Thanks for letting me vent. I would like all the information you have on mood disorders. I am reading the book called The Bipolar Child. Thanks

Lornaabc

01-12-2005, 07:44 AM

As a friend I know Vicki and her problems well. She is a great little girl who is far beyond her years in school work. She wouldn't get the advance work load she needs in ps. Trisha you are right not to send her to school. Dr. G. is telling you best. Go with your God and your mothering skills. She would be bored to death in school. I think she is doing so much better this past year. Karate has helped a load too. She gets along better with the kids. My boys actually ask to play with her now. 1 year ago they didn't do that. They thought she was mean spitting at them and hitting them. I think things are going really well as I see it anyway. By night I am sure she is tired and may have trouble at bedtime. My boys do when I let them get too tired. They will cry and not go to sleep well. Praying for you all. I love you both. Even dh. LOL

KrisRV

01-12-2005, 07:47 AM

Amanda, I would love it if you would post the site on BP my sister called last night and my nephew was told he had BP so would love to help them any way I can with some information for them.
Thanks :lol:

CrystalB9

01-12-2005, 02:58 PM

Sorry to post so late Trish. I am praying for you. We also deal with ADD, ADHD and BP in our house with some of the kids. It can be tough. I have found hsing to be great especially with these children in particular.

Amanda

01-12-2005, 05:02 PM

I added a post about BP in the Homeschooling forum. :)

The little girl I had with BP was very bright. She would have thrived in a setting where she could help direct her own learning, but it would take someone who could provide firm discipline. She was manipulative, and was used to getting her way. With BP, the mood you're in has a lot to do with what you're interested in and the quality of work. If she wasn't into it, she wouldn't do her best. She was always working independently... usually on something creative. Unfortunately, this didn't work in the classroom very well.

I really admire you all for doing such a great job!!! Homeschooling wouldn't work for everyone because it takes a strong parent! I think it's even harder to teach your own kids... I don't know if I would have the patience. I don't have kids yet, so maybe I will change my mind.

Brooke

01-12-2005, 07:01 PM

Amanda

01-12-2005, 08:00 PM

Here is yet another 2 cents worth... :) ....I know from experience with my ds that all of these diagnoses are purely based on observation and drug therapy benefits. We found, as well as ds's child psychiatrist, that ds was having symptoms of ADHD. He is also gifted and giftedness has many of the same behaviors associated with it. You know your child best, and I get the feeling that you are apprehensive about adding more medications. Listen to your gut--or possibly The Spirit???- and pray for discernment. I have never had those feelings be unfounded. If you feel uneasy there is usually a reason.

And to add another 2 cents... As far as medication goes, it will not cure a mood disorder or other mental illness. A person who has BP will always have it, while it may be more manageable with meds. I see a lot of adults on medication that could not get relief any other way, and others that are over-medicated. At school, I've had kids on meds that didn't need them. It scares me because they really do not know the full effects of these meds on adults, and even less about children who are still growing and developing. There is still a lot of controversy in this area..

For anyone looking for a non-meds perspective (or as little meds as possible), you might find this site helpful: www.bipolarhappens.com -- The author of that site had bad reactions to taking meds and learned to manage her illness without meds. And I don't even think she sought God's assistance, which puts you ahead of the game already. I have 2 of her books, and would be happy to share. She has a lot of info for family members to help them understand the illness better.

I agree with Brooke to pray about this (which was the point of this thread), so please know that I'm just adding this info for further research. :) I'm not sure what I would decide in the same position... I'd have to pray about it myself.

Deena

01-12-2005, 08:49 PM

I've seen it to the point where the kids think they can't get along without the meds because they've been told they can't.

I was in a store once and a grandmother had a little boy in a cart. She started talking to me, and after a few minutes, the boys asked if they could go. It seemed reasonable to me---how boring would it be to sit in the little seat of a cart and listen to adults talking?! She very irritably said you be quiet and sit still. I tried to slowly get out of the conversation for his sake, but she kept talking. He moved around a little, to me it looked like he was stretching, and said louder, "Can we PLEASE go?!" She grabbed his hand, got right in his face and said, "My, we're getting out of control now aren't we?!" Then she stood, looked at me and said, " He needs his medication. He gets so out of control without it. Don't you?!" She said to him. She went on and on about how bad he was being without his medicine and how much he needed it and what a horrible child he was being! I just couldn't believe it! That was sooo uncomfortable for me---and for him too. I sent up a prayer for him! I told the grandma that maybe he was just tired of sitting, but that didn't go over well!

Obviously mostpeople aren't like that, at least I certainly hope not! In that instance, I think the grandma needed the medication more than the boy did. He seemed like he was being a typical boy to me!

Brooke

01-13-2005, 05:19 PM

You know. That whole thing about the boy not behaving without the medication is a complete falicy. Children who disobey will still disobey with our without the meds and vice versa. The caregivers need to see if they are making a choice to disobey or if it is actually an action (fidgeting) that is uncontrolable. People like that make me sick for those kids.

On a side note, at the doctor's recommendation and my hurray :wink: , Brandon went off of Straterra (sp?) last May. He has had no symptoms since--except he discovered food. His Tourette's Syndrome causes tics and fidgety movement, which was never an issue with us anyway. He does take an SSRI for emotions that cause his tics to worsen to the point of not being able to speak. Fortunately we have a doctor who wants to see patients off meds when they can be. Ds's emotions are stablizing nicely since we began homeschooling and we expect for him to be able to live without meds in the future.

I am hoping your little one will have the same kind of success my son has had.

Trish

01-14-2005, 08:09 AM

I just I would tell you what happened yesterday. There is a lady whose son takes karate with Vicki. He is a new kid. She and I were talking yesterday about Vicki and her problems. She ask me which school she was in in our district. I told her I homeschooled. I explained how it started out a conviction more than anything and then told her the story about Vicki condition. I also explained what Dr. Goudelock had said about homeschooling her. She works with our district with special needs. She is in the Administration. She told me I was probably doing best I could for Vicki. She did say we have good teachers and some bad teachers. She said that I could work around her condition better than the school district could. That made me feel good. I guess god sends people your way just when you need them. So if the subject of ps is brought up again I have my defense right there. Thanks for all the prayers.

Vicki started Depakota last night. Yesterday was a very bad day. She was in a rage many times. She bit at me and tried choking me. This morning she seems a little more mellow. Again thanks for the prayers. Have a good day.

Deena

01-14-2005, 09:33 AM

Trish,

As hard as it is some days, like yesterday for you, you've made a great decision. A child who is working through emotions and things as Vicki is would just get labeled, teased and sometimes punished. She doesn't need negative reactions, that would probably tend to set her off even more. Though it's tough, she needs YOU, her mom, to be there for her and support her! She knows you love her, and feels comfortable "letting it all hang out" with you. I'm not saying that she shouldn't go to some form of therapy or whatever works out, but the home environment is hopefully a place of refuge, where she won't be teased or looked down upon!

We'll be praying for you and Vicki!

Sabrina

01-14-2005, 10:35 PM

Trish,
Could you tell me what the clonidine is prescribed for? My husband takes it for high blood pressure.
Sabrina

Trish

01-15-2005, 08:28 AM

In a small doses it can be used for ADHD. It helps a child with anger and being aggressive. It also helps them to sleep. They told me that the it was used in grown ups for high blood pressure.

Anonymous

01-15-2005, 12:18 PM

Trish,
Please call or visit your pharmacist or pharmacy about the different meds she is on. Ask them if there are any drug interactions or foods she should avoid. My mom had a pretty bad reaction from a common food while on BP medication. Hang in there and watch for side effects, you might keep a journal.
We are praying for you both.
Tammy

Trish

01-15-2005, 08:32 PM

Amanda

01-15-2005, 09:06 PM

Tammy thanks for the advice. I was reading tonight in the book The Bipolar Child that she couldn't take Sudafed. She has never really been one to take it but I am glad I read that. It hasn't mentioned any foods yet. Thanks again.
Trish - Is it to be avoided because of conflicts with meds, or because of the BP? I have found that I personally cannot take Sudafed. It's the pseudoephedrine in the Sudafed that causes the problem, so be sure to check the ingredients. It's a nasal decongestant also found in many other drugs, such as Claritin-D. I learned the hard way that I have to stay away from pseudoephedrine. I realized I am better off not taking anything.

Last year when I had the flu, I told the dr. I was looking for a nasal decongestant without pseudoephrine, and he gave me Lortuss DM. It has Phenylephrine Hydrochloride in it instead. I am not sure if it is a viable alternative... It's chemically related to pseudoephedrine, so I would think it does the same thing. When I was taking it, I was sick in bed, so it's hard to tell how it affected my mood since I didn't encounter any stress to test it out. I did stop taking it after 2-3 times because I was feeling bad, but it could have been due to having to be in bed for 10 days, rather than the medicine!

The only thing I have found that I can take is Guaifenesin, which is for chest congestion. I'm stuck with the sinus and nasal pressure, unless I would rather be a basket case.

Oh, this might be helpful! I just found this list of some of the meds that have pseudoephedrine in them:
http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/rxlist.cgi?drug=pseudoephedrine

Also, FYI, this is the drug that people use to make meth/speed.

Trish

01-16-2005, 08:54 PM

Amanda

01-16-2005, 10:03 PM

Amanda,
I am going to quote what the book I am reading says to answer your question. I don't want to leave anything out.
"Sudafed ( or any medication with pseudoephedrine). It acts on the noradrenergic system, increasing norepinephrine and therefor increasing arousal and anxiety states." I hope that answers your question. I would of never even thought about not giving Vicki Sudafed. She doesn't take it very often but she has in the past. I will have to watch all my labels from now on.

Thanks for the info! That's explains it. :) I really hadn't seen any information about pseudoephedrine and was just going off my personal experience over the past several years. I didn't narrow it down to the pseudoephedrine until a year ago. I now remember my mom thinking that foods with certain preservatives and food colorings made me "hyper" or a "little monster" when I was a kid. She said the same thing about Triaminic cold medicine. She thought it was the orange/red food coloring, but it turns out it has pseudoephedrine in it... no wonder!

Brooke

01-17-2005, 10:14 AM

Just jumping in on the pseudoephedrine talk.....a year ago I had what are called PVC's. It's where your heart "drops out" of beating for a couple seconds at a time. I had to have my heart monitored a couple times and evidentally it was caused by the pseudoephedrine I had taken once a day for a few days. It builds up in your system and takes a bit to wear off. The ER doctor told me there is a reason people use Sudafed to make meth. :shock:

If you'll notice the root names of pseudoephedrine, you'll see that it means "like ephedrine" which is that drug used in diet pills which is illegal now.

Trish

01-17-2005, 01:34 PM

Thank you all for the your information on this. I really appreciate it. If you know anything else that could hurt her please let me know what it is. I will never let her use Sudafed again. I will read all cold medicines and everything she takes. Thanks again.

Amanda

01-17-2005, 03:25 PM

Trish,

You may already know this, but avoid sugar and caffeine at all costs. :twisted: <--- me as a child on sugar and/or caffeine. Mom says she would know I was in "little monster" mode when my pupils were dilated. (What a surprise--it is a also symptom of using speed.)

Something else that people may not realize is how important regular sleep is. Lack of sleep can make someone with this tendency to become more hypomanic or manic. It sounds strange, but it's true. I used to "self-medicate" that way without realizing it... I could set myself into a more energetic mood state my limiting my sleep to 5 hours or less. A normal person would be dragging all day, but I felt charged... like I had several cups of coffee. Too much sleep can have the opposite effect, so regular sleep is really important for regulating moods. Lack of sleep could cause a dysphoric mania, which is the angry and irritable form of mania, so this would be a good thing to investigate. ;)

P.S. I hope I don't sound like a know-it-all... I've been soaking all this in like a sponge and trying to make sense of it myself!

Amanda

01-17-2005, 04:33 PM

I apologize in advance for information overload, but I'm into researching this topic now and can't stop. :roll:

I remember having problems after drinking Sobe Green Tea... It would stress me out.
So, I checked the ingredients just now to see if I could see if there was a reason: It contains echniacea, ginseng, ginkgo biloba, and guarana. All seemed relatively harmless until I looked up guarana. Guarana contains caffeine! (and I believe a drink that has guarana in it is 2-3 times stronger than an average drink containing "caffeine")
http://www.sobebev.com/product_info/exotic_green.shtml

So, you also have to be on the lookout for herbs and other things that can disguise the more familiar no-nos.

What I find irritating is that on their website they have a quote from a pregnant woman saying it's the only thing that helps her baby settle down. :x I know many women who avoid caffeine during pregnancy, and they could drink that stuff without even realizing it has caffeine in it!

Trish

01-17-2005, 09:18 PM

Amanda you don't sound like a no it all. I really appreciate all the information. I do watch Vicki's caffiene(spelled wrong). I was one of those pregrant women who didn't drink it either. I have always tried to watch what Vicki ate or drank. She is not really crazy about candy. She isn't crazy at all about chocolate. That I am grateful for. She might bite a piece every once and awhile. She does drink chocolate milk. I did change that to Nestle Nesquick. That is 99.9 caffiene free. I don't allow her to drink sodas with caffiene if it can be avoided.

I haven't really looked at herbs for her. She is so picky about everything till I would probably be wasting my time and money.

You were talking about sleep. That is another issue we are having. She went to bed last night at 9:30 and woke up at 5:15 this morning. The phone rang and woke her up. She is on Clonidine to help her sleep at night. She sometimes is very early getting up or late going to bed. I give her medicine between 7:30 and 8:00. Closer to 8:00 on church nights. She may still being going at 10:00. She has been as late as 1:00 a.m. going to sleep. She has woke up as early as 3:30. I really wish she could get her sleeping down pat. I know she needs at 10 to 12 hours every night. When she is late going to bed or gets up early that morning that day is usually awful. Today was terrible after about 4:00. Also around 6:30 this morning. She got mad cause Daddy had to go to work. It was terrible. This evening she got mad because she couldn't go with her Daddy and uncle to fix her uncle's truck. She was wearing a belt and took and hit me with it. I popped her bottom with my hand. I took the belt away from and put it up. Anything can set her off. I walk on thin ice a lot lately.

Again thanks for information and keep it coming. I need everything I can get to deal with this. It is hard.

Amanda

01-17-2005, 11:40 PM

RE: sleep

I have a hard time with sleep. I don't have anyone here to tell me I have to go to bed. I'm going to tell you the things I've learned about sleep --what I know I should do but don't. But you are the parent, so you can "make" her do this... in your own round about way ( have you heard of love and logic yet? www.loveandlogic.com ) :) --

Bedtime needs to be at the same time every night. Make a routine and stick to it... I know this has the potential to turn into a big power struggle, but love and logic has many good strategies for power struggles. To help her relax before bed, maybe you can work in a bath or back rub or other calming activity leading up to bedtime. You could do a lesson on relaxation techniques... ways to calm herself down when she's feeling angry or mean or like she's going to explode, or in this case, when's she's too excited too sleep. (These types of lessons helped the little girl who was in my class.) She can help come up with ideas for getting to bed on time so she gets regular sleep and feels better. If she has to go to bed when she's not tired yet, what kinds of things can she do when she lies down? (Have her come up with ideas...) For instance, she could say her ABCs in her head, then try to say them backward... She could make pictures in her mind to go along with the letters. (I have even spelled the word RELAX in my head picturing each letter, and it worked for me.) Or, she could count. I always thought counting sheep was too boring, but I'm sure she could come up with ideas to make it more interesting, with encouragement. I have been told that the bed has to be a place that's used only for sleeping, so be sure that the activities don't involve anything other than trying to fall asleep. (No TV, for instance.) You could start slowly... backing bedtime up a few minutes each night until you get to the time you'd like her to go to bed.

Waking up early is another issue... maybe a rule that she has to try those relaxation techniques to sleep until a certain time each morning? I'm just brainstorming and throwing out ideas. Like I said before, I really admire you. She sounds a lot like the little girl I had in my class. I keep going back to love and logic, but it works great for a child like that... It focuses on natural consequences, given in a loving way. It makes the child accountable and helps the child learn to make the right choices. There are several books for it, but Parenting With Love and Logic (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/0891093117/atozteachstuff/) is a good one to start with. I have it and Teaching with Love and Logic, which focuses on classroom situations.

RE: diet...
In addition to sugar, foods that have a high GI index cause a spike in blood sugar which may lead to hypoglycemia (low blood sugar). Hypoglycemia will make someone irritable and mean. I've enountered several people with BP/Cyclothymia that have problems with low blood sugar. It may have to do with the way our bodies break down chemicals. It may not be an issue with her, but you might notice a problem with certain foods with a high GI (anything with white flour, processed foods, white potatoes, etc.) Eating with the GI index in mind is a good diet for anyone to follow because it keeps insulin levels stable (insulin makes the body store fat). I can say that I have encountered more people in the BP/cyclothymia area with hypoglycemia problems than I have in the average population. So, it may be worth checking into. As for chocolate milk -- I have had more trouble with the sugar in chocolate than the caffeine.

Trish

01-18-2005, 06:50 AM

Amanda in response to bed time. Bed time is a rountine at our house. We do always try to calm her down and not let her get excited before bed. She takes a bath. I rub her down with lotion. I have always done that. I guess I want her to always have baby skin. :D I honestly still use Baby Magic on her. I love the smell. :P Her therapist told me one time that her mind does not stop to let her go to sleep. She keeps having raising thoughts go through her head. He said her brain doesn't shut down for her to go to sleep. She can be just about asleep and then jump slap out of bed and going running all over the house and keep going for another 1 to 2 hours. I have never seen anything like it. It is like she gets a burst of energy that came from nowhere. They have told me to just let the energy wear out. It can be hard.

I will check into the website. Thanks again.

Brooke

01-18-2005, 09:28 AM

I've only skimmed the last few posts but thought I would jump in here with a big praise for Love and Logic. It turned my house around a few years ago. One of my brothers is a school psych in a suburb of Chicago. He recommended it for my strong-willed darlings :wink: . It keeps everyone sane while altering behavior. Great find!

My favorite book so far was Pearls of Love and Logic for Parents and Teachers. It is set up like a quick reference book for ages/problems. My bro let me borrow it and I'd really like to get a copy for myself. Do look into Love and Logic, it really helped my whole home.

Amanda

01-19-2005, 12:18 AM

Her therapist told me one time that her mind does not stop to let her go to sleep. She keeps having raising thoughts go through her head. He said her brain doesn't shut down for her to go to sleep. She can be just about asleep and then jump slap out of bed and going running all over the house and keep going for another 1 to 2 hours.

Trish - I'm sorry I didn't mention this earlier, but it may make more sense... I have cyclothymia, a mild form of BP 2, same ups and downs but not always so extreme. When I was a kid, I was mainly "hyper" and very creative -- but my parents always complained about how I was a little monster (and I can't remember those times... I think I felt like it wasn't "me") I think I cried all the time when I was a baby, and I threw temper tantrums my whole life. I truly cannot remember when I was bad. Maybe it was when I felt like I was going to explode, and then someone told me to sit still. Then I exploded. Who knows? Anyway, I didn't start having problems I can remember until I was 12. Things have gotten progressively worse until last year when I finally realized what was going on. Knowing makes it easier to understand, but dealing with it is still difficult.

I can completely relate to the sleep problems and racing thoughts. I have to force myself to relax... That's what I was thinking about the relaxation techniques. I can sometimes switch the racing thoughts to something relaxing. So instead of nafdkajd;lfkja;fdjadl;fkjadklfjakldfjaldfjadf, it's something organized that I can say over and over again in my head that puts me to sleep. (like spelling the word relax backward and forward--It's difficult enough that it won't let any new thoughts slip in) She might be able to try slowing down her thoughts by focusing on something relaxing or pleasant. Maybe a soothing song would work. I should try these things myself more often... I am really bad... I have no one to force me to go to sleep and I'm on a flexible schedule now. I could just stay up all night. But, when I allow myself to just stay awake until my body gives out, I run into more problems with more extreme ups and downs. I don't know what the solution is... still learning.

I think my mom used her own version of love and logic when I was a kid. My dad was totally opposite... He would set me off, but when my mom dealt with me she got better results due to her love and logic-like methods. At school, I found it was the only thing that worked with the strong willed kids (and I certainly had my share!!! :shock:)

Brooke - I'm going to check out Pearls of Love and Logic for Parents and Teachers -- It's hard to put the ideas into action without specific examples, so that version sounds great. Once you get the hang of it, it gets easier...

Trish

01-19-2005, 08:23 AM

I will try the relaxation methods for her. She needs to let her mind just not focus on anything. I have the same problem. I can't sleep because of that. It is getting worse the older I get. ( I am 40.)

Do you remember what kind of things set you off. Vicki can set off about anything. Mostly though it is being told no. You can look at her the wrong way and her go off. She can come out of nowhere with some things. She was watching a movie last Saturday and just went into a rage. She just sitting on the floor. I was lying on the bed and just started dosing off. This was in the afternoon. I had got good and still. She just jumped and started screaming no more movie. After that it was a rage all afternoon.

Amanda

01-21-2005, 01:04 AM

Hi Trish,
I talked to my mom about this tonight. I really don't remember these things a lot... When I do remember events, I remember feeling really upset and hurt. I may have been acting out because I didn't know how to express my feelings any other way. I think they were times I was in a "mixed state" -- lots of energy, but negative thinking/perception of everything. I also saw myself in the little girl I had in my class last year which helped me understand more. When she would throw a fit, I would talk to her later after she had calmed down. I realized she was in a mixed state (depressed w/ lots of energy). Her perception of the situation was always clouded with a negative mindset... She thought kids were making fun of her (when they may have been laughing about something else), or she tried to do something so difficult, even impossible, and then failed --She felt worthless. Anyway, I think the anger was how she expressed her frustration because she didn't know any other way. So, that's what we worked on all year. She did improve and was able to control herself better -- For instance, she refrained from taking out her anger with hitting other kids, and before she blew she would stop herself and go to her safe place in our room -- usually the bean bag in the corner. She needed to get away from everyone and then she could calm herself down. I remember one day that the slightest noise would get her frazzled. She was able to express that she needed to be by herself, so I allowed her to move to a table by herself. I could see that it was still too close to other kids, so she eventually moved out to a desk in the hall and was able to finish her work without any further problems. She normally did not have a problem with talking in the room, so it was just something about her mood that day.

I rarely had problems at school... I have a really calm *personality* so I am naturally more sudued. At home, I was busy doing little projects a lot and avoided conflict when I was in a bad mood. A lot of my feelings were internal, so no one could really see what was going on. Mom said she knew when my pupils were dilated that I needed to be by myself. My dad would set me off... I think when a child is in that state, anything could set them off, truly. I think the key may be helping them learn to identify that feeling and how to redirect themselves instead of blowing up. (I think it will always be a struggle though.)

Considering the reasons behind the meltdowns with myself and the little girl in my class (I'll call her "Lisa" from now on!!!), I thought about the "no more movie" rage Vicki had... It's hard to tell what was going on in her head, but if it were Lisa or me, 2 things come to mind...
The first thing I thought was... She was content watching the movie until she noticed you were falling asleep. With you asleep, it's not fun anymore, or she felt alone, she wanted YOU to be there... She didn't have the security of knowing she could interact with you if you fell asleep.
Or it could have been as simple as getting bored after the first part of the movie and she had all that energy build-up from watching the first part.
Who knows? I really think it's either pure irritability and ANYTHING would make her mad, or the it's being sensitive and emotional and ANYTHING would make her feel sad/frustrated.

Can you ever get her to talk about how she is feeling after she's calmed down? I tried to emphasize to Lisa that it was okay to have those feelings, but it wasn't okay to hit someone or throw a chair in the room. We figured out things she could do that wouldn't cause a problem for someone else. The 2 best ones for her were -- moving somewhere by herself, or asking for help. She could tell me that she felt frustrated, sad, mad, whatever, and we would discuss things she could do to deal with it. :) Of course there are always those times that self control goes out the window no matter how much you work on it. :shock: