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QueenGeek
03-31-2007, 08:15 PM
This article was being discussed on a Christian forum I frequent, where there are some homeschoolers. I thought you might be interested in this.

http://www.afa.net/germanhomeschool.htm

Note: I don't know where the AFA got their info on the reported incidents.

momothem
03-31-2007, 08:19 PM
That is SO scary.
I will now sit and count my blessings!!

Hoosier Mama
03-31-2007, 08:35 PM
OH my gosh....I can't even imagine how horrible that would be. Momothem...you are right....we need to count our blessings!

sloan127
03-31-2007, 08:58 PM
I read that and another article about a different family in the same situation on the HSLDA updates I get in my email. It is so sad that those children are being put through all this. Beth

Faith
03-31-2007, 09:05 PM
Blessings counted here also.

Whatever happened to freedom of choice.

QueenGeek
03-31-2007, 09:11 PM
Whatever happened to freedom of choice.
Good question. <soapbox> I think freedom of choice disappeared when a small group of people became discontent to just do things their way and mind their own business. Instead, they want to meddle in everyone else's business. </soapbox>

I don't homeschool, but I fully support those who do and want the right to do so if I so choose (which I well may, depending on how the first year of public high school goes... I've already broached the subject with DH, and he's fully supportive.)

sloan127
03-31-2007, 09:17 PM
I didn't read the whole article from the first post but I think it is the same one I saw. In Germany homeschooling is against the law. So here is my question for all of us... would you still homeschool your children if it was against the law where you live?

Jackie
04-01-2007, 07:55 AM
Actually, this question came up before, I think it was over another article on the same young lady. I asked Carl, and he said YES! If he felt that was what God was calling us to do, we need to be obedient to God over the government. And I honestly believe that someday it WILL come to that in this country. The family has appealed to the European Court, and they ruled AGAINST the family, saying that the government has the right to stop "counter culotures" in their society, or some such. And that "right" is greater than the parents' rights over their children, or freedom of religion. I believe that our government will eventually adopt the "world wide" system, and that this will trump our Consitution.

sloan127
04-01-2007, 11:45 AM
How scary that sounds Jackie. I honestly don't know what we would do. Because we adopted the last four and I know the county is against homeschooling foster children, ( which our four were before we adopted them ) I would be a little afraid of what would happen if the laws were changed. We would be in a tough spot and I don't think I am strong enough to risk losing my girls. I just pray it never comes to that. I know I am sounding weak here but I am just being honest. I have really thought about it since reading about the German families. Beth

Jackie
04-01-2007, 12:36 PM
Beth, what I say is from a very secure position. We are NOT in that situation, and we don't know if we ever will be. It's easy to say I'd make a tough stand when I don't HAVE to. But when the rubber meets the road, I honestly can't say FOR SURE what I'd do!

becky
04-01-2007, 12:58 PM
These parents knew it was illegal to homeschool, so why did they? Where did it get them? What dangers might the kids be exposed to now? I feel for the kids, but those parents made the wrong choice.

Deena
04-01-2007, 06:53 PM
I'll have to disagree on that one Becky! God said it's not going to be easy..."they will persecute you for My sake..." to do the right thing. If they felt convicted to homeschool, then it would have been more wrong for them NOT to homeschool!

Christians have been persecuted for centuries. Why? Because they wouldn't give up their faith and therefore give the government authority over them. We are to follow the laws and rules of our land, UNLESS it goes against what God says. Then we have to take our stand. A lot of what goes on in schools, in many nations, is brain-washing stuff, much of it says government first, self second, and others and family come far down the list.

In fact, that kind of thing happened here in America not all that long ago! We are blessed that our laws have changed now. But it was because people chose to homeschool anyway, and fight the system, because it was unjust! They got put in prison, their kids were taken away, they got drug to court over and over. If they hadn't have persevered, we may not have the freedom to homeschool that we do now!

Okay, I'm all done. ;)

Jackie
04-01-2007, 06:57 PM
No, Becky, I don't feel these parents made the wrong choice. Yes, they chose to break the law. But YOU are homeschooling today because there were those who dared to break the law in this country some thirty years ago. We have the freedom to homeschool because of what they did. Becky, they are responsible to God first. THEY are the only ones able to decide if their decision was right or not, not you. There are families in Germany that are actually living in hiding in other countries because they feel they have the God-given right to raise up their children without the government telling them how to. And they live in fear that they might be expedited back to Germany. But they also feel that they need to take this stand.

ChelC
04-02-2007, 10:40 AM
Well, here's the thought provoking question of the day for you. What is the law, in the U.S. is the law what is constitutionally correct or is it whatever the majority (or some judge) decides it to be?

Governments have no rights. Rights come from God, not from government. Non beings like government can have no rights. Governments are instituted by people to protect their rights!

This is where it gets fuzzy. I believe in obeying the law, but I also consider it a duty to uphold the constitutional principles our nation was founded upon. Those on the bench do not have the right to create law, but simply to interpret the constitution. When the constitution is silent, they must likewise remain silent, and details may be added in through legislation which the bench can then decide the constitutionality of. Checks and balances.....

This is why it's sooooo scary to me that most people don't even understand the constitution, including most of the elected reps who raise their arm to the square and swear to defend it.

Rant off. Sorry.

becky
04-02-2007, 03:27 PM
To me, these parents were German. They knew the law. They broke it and lost their kids. What did they win? I don't see what they won. In fact, is it not in the Bible that we are to obey the laws of our homeland? I forget the verse, but it's in there.

Deena
04-02-2007, 03:35 PM
I mentioned that in my message Becky, Yes, obey the laws of the land, HOWEVER, if they go against God's law, you MUST choose God's law over human law!

There's a text that Jesus said, "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesars, and unto God the things that are God's. That's in Mathew 22:21.

Emma's#1fan
04-02-2007, 03:51 PM
Becky, are you referring to Romans 13:1-7?
"1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor."

Now lets read Acts 5:27-29.
Having brought the apostles, they made them appear before the Sanhedrin to be questioned by the high priest. 28"We gave you strict orders not to teach in this name," he said. "Yet you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and are determined to make us guilty of this man's blood."
29Peter and the other apostles replied: "We must obey God rather than men!"

So we are to obey the law of the land, as Deena stated.
But when we are told to not do something that God is clearly directing us to do, then we should obey God not the law.
For someone like me, who homeschools for Godly reasons, I would have to break the law if I was ever told not to homeschool my children. I am called to raise my child in Christ, in all things. This incudes her education.
Patty

becky
04-02-2007, 04:05 PM
Patty, I forget the verse! I'm in gel mode right now, and I did reread Deena's post and saw she already mentioned obeying the laws of the land.

These parents lost big time. It makes me shudder to think who might have their kids. The Bible tells us to raise our children in Christ, but I don't see that as a command to homeschool. I believe there were other things these parents could have done, that could have kept them from losing their kids!What gets proved by losing your kids? I just don't see it..

Emma's#1fan
04-02-2007, 04:23 PM
You are correct in saying it isn't a command to homeschool. It is a command to obey God above all.
For my family, sending Ems to a public school to be taught by godless teachers for many hours a day, is not part of God's plan. For at least 6-7 hours a day, she would be taught that many sinful behaviors are normal and she would also be taught that their is no truth and no God. She would also be taught what is contrary to our belief system. To me, this is willingly denying Christ. I am allowing my child's mind to be perverted.
Once my pastor asked the church, if Christianity became illegal and we were told not to share the message of Christ, would we obey because of the risk of being put in jail or executed? If it meant we would be thrown in prison and our children would be raised elsewhere, would we deny Christ by our words and lifestyle? My child is God's before she is mine.
It is a powerful question.
Patty

Deena
04-02-2007, 04:32 PM
Pretty much everybody was homeschooled back then, so they didn't need to write about it in the Bible I guess! :)

But there are texts that talk about raising your child in the way he should go, which, imho, means God's way. Not everyone feels the same callings as I might or you might! These parents made a decision to homeschool because they didn't want their child turned against their own family (certainly NOT Godly!), and they wanted to teach their children about God (not allowed!). In the world's eyes, you're right, these parents lost BIG time! But in God's eyes, these parents were willing to follow God no matter what! Like Abraham---God wanted Abraham to follow God, even if it meant losing his own son! You are not convicted that this is a moral or Godly issue, so it wouldn't be the same for you. But it seems that these parents thought it was their Godly, moral and righteous duty to homeschool their children, so it was imperative that they do what they felt God led them to do! I'm sure God will work something out. We, as Christians, need to remember that our reward isn't of this world, it's with God, in Heaven! It may look like we lose here, but we're winning in God's eyes, and Heaven IS our reward!

becky
04-02-2007, 04:42 PM
So you would both willingly lose your kids by breaking the law like that? Let them be put in some foster home with who knows what kind of deviant? You both have daughters just like I do. Doesn't the thought of that give you the creeps? That's not winning, not making a point. It's losing your kids- period.

Does anyone know what these parents are doing now?

Deena
04-03-2007, 09:29 AM
Becky, the only thing I can say is this:

In Matthew 5 are the Beatitudes, and verses 10 through 12 say: "Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice and be exceeding glad, for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you."

If I feel convicted that I should homeschool, or be a Christian, then I MUST stand up for my beliefs, come what may! I can't imagine that happening to my children, it IS sickening! satan is in charge and causes horrible things to happen! Yet, I can trust that God can work things out, and even help others by what happens to me, and can protect the children from more harm by helping them through the rough times also.

I can't honestly say how I'd act or what I'd do in those moments. It's gut-wrenching to even think about! However I would hope that I would stand up for God and His way!

Jesus went through agony to save us. He made choices, and ended up being killed for what He said and did. However, what He did was not a mistake, it served a higher purpose. I bet His mother and disciples couldn't see the whole picture of why this happened, but it worked out for the best!

Taking your stand for God and your beliefs has happened all through time: The Waldenses, the Reformers (Huss, Jerome, Calvin, etc.), all stood up for their faith and beliefs and died for it. That affected their families also. We have to remember that "this world is not our home, we're just passing through". Our reward will be in heaven, not on earth. As I said before, It may seem stupid and unneeded by us humans, but God has called us to stand for Him and our convictions. God can send people and circumstances to comfort the children.

What's happening to these families may very well open this up and help reforms to happen there! It's NOT "losing your kids- period", it's standing up for what's right, with much prayer and sacrifice, and encouraging others to do the same, INCLUDING the children!

There, that's my 25 cents (inflation) worth! ;)

becky
04-03-2007, 11:13 AM
And I'll still let you be Scrapbooking Poobah when Jeanne gets elected. Lol.

Deena
04-03-2007, 12:57 PM
I accept! :D

MonkeyMamma
04-03-2007, 08:52 PM
WOW! I am just now getting aroudn to reradin this one. I would like to believe that if it were illegal and I truly felt like God was leading me to homeschool that I would follow God's plan for me. I think having your children taken away is horrible but I also see these parents as paving the way so to speak for other families. I think Deena and Patty have said it better than I ever could.

AussieMum
04-10-2007, 07:45 AM
I didn't see this before today either - it's awful.
The scary thing to me is not the could this happen here factor, but the power and control issues. If the state has the absolute power to control the education of all of it's citizens, what will prevent the events of Nazi Gremany from replaying themselves? Where are the free thinkers? Where are the free?????

QueenGeek
04-10-2007, 07:22 PM
I'm afraid that free thinking in a large society with a strong central government is an illusion. The best way to force a societal change is by "educating" the kids. That's why you see such a focus on "tolerance" in the US public school system, where "tolerance" is defined as tolerating only those things deemed politically correct, and those who do not "tolerate" those things are deemed as "intolerant biggots". Children, can you say a-g-e-n-d-a? I knew you could.

And, this is why homeschooling and private education are so important, and why it is such a huge threat that must be stamped out by those who are seeking the change.

P.H.
04-11-2007, 12:23 PM
Which is another reason why you need to homeschool, Laura!:)

QueenGeek
04-11-2007, 12:29 PM
Touche! LOL