Are you sitting down?!

[becky]

I bought Jeannie an animal book recently.
On one page they call a bushbaby a possum.
On another page they show a goat- with an erection. I kid you not.
I plan to search for the publisher on the web and write to them.
Maybe I should send the book to Leno.

[Brenda]

Publisher's will do anything to pollute the minds of the young and innocent. What a sick world we live in!

Brenda

[becky]

Brenda, I looked at that thing ( the whole picture, I mean :oops: ) many times. I don't see goats daily, but I do know this goat has an issue. There's no mistaking what this is. They could have airbrushed that out. There's pictures of other animals standing up, like a bear and a dog, and you can't see anything but fur.
It's an overseas publisher. Maybe that's acceptable over there.
I don't feel like I should have skimmed through this before I bought it. It's a book about animals, and a board book at that! For pete's sake, can we ever let our guard down?

[CZ4kids]

Jay Leno would have a field day with that one. :shock: Yeh, places like Germany, France....Italy... nudity and erect "things" (ahem) are common place and accepted around children. I lived in germany for 5 months when i was married to my exhusband and my oldest was a baby. Never go to a tanning salon there, or a public pool. :oops: I cant think of a good goat joke but I'm sure Leno can.

[Jackie]

That kind of thing REALLY gets my goat!!!

(Sorry! Just couldn't resist!)

[Brooke]

:lol: ....Sorry, just had to laugh. Not that I would love to have that picture in one of our books, but being an animal person (veterinary tech.) I see that all the time. It's part of God's Creation. Not that I like having to explain the first time my kids saw a gelding, uh, "relaxing" himself in the pasture.....or especially the first time someone sees dogs hind-end to hind-end out in the yard......well, you get the idea..... :oops:

Yeah, it's yucky to have published for the picture to live forever, so to speak, but I can't say that I don't have not-so-flattering pictures of my dogs that we've said "oops!" when the pictures were developed......In fact, one of my bros' senior pics with our dog came out that way.....needless to say, we didn't purchase one of those :wink: , but it does happen and gets captured on film occasionally.

[becky]

Jackie and Brooke- you turkeys!! :lol:
There were mistakes all in this book, but the hot to trot goat was the worst.

[Brooke]

Oh, the one-liners that are coming to mind....... :lol:

[Kathe]

Uhhhmmm ... I had to laugh, Becky ... sowwwwy. :oops:

It MUST be the hippy in me because I'm not seeing at as a uhhh .... BIG .... deal at all. :D

I've been to the zoo with the kids before, with a Zebra sporting a huge one :shock: ... at the very least it's a segue into explaining the birds and bees .... of goats LOL.

Perhaps she won't even notice !!! :roll:

Kathe

[becky]

My issue with this is-
A foreign company published this. I cannot find them on the web.
I bought her what looked like a cute board book about animals. Inside was a picture of a goat with an erection.
There should have been something in place to keep that from being printed.
Suppose it had been a book called My Family, and it contained a picture of big brother smoking a blunt?
I might be extreme in my example, but you get my point.
I'm wondering if this publisher is the same one who made those Septemberv 11 toys? Did you hear about that- it was two tiny towers with a tiny plane between them, aimed at the one tower. When the company was contacted about why they made such a thing, they said they saw nothing wrong with it.

Seeing animals in a zoo or at a farm is one thing. You can't control whhat happens in that setting. A printed book is a whole different ball park. That piucture did not need to be included. They even posed a steamed crab, the idiots!
I know for a fact that it didn't faze Jeannie, but I still don't believe the picture belonged in there. If I buy her such an innocent looking book, one meant for a baby, I should not have to stand there and look through it for offensive material.
I know some of you think it's funny, but try to see the bigger picture.
And stop laughing!!!!!

[Kathe]

Life is replete with 'bigger pictures' Becky, and I'm not missing your point at all. :)

As was mentioned, perhaps it WAS an oversight; or, as has also been postulated, perhaps it's a somewhat twisted, thoughtless plot to corrupt little minds.

If you can't find them on the web ... maybe there's a reason ... like they were sued to oblivion !!!

Sorry I laughed.

[Brooke]

I'm sorry for laughing, too. On here it is hard to tell that I was laughing at the situation....not your cause for concern. In fact, I would not want it in my home either. What really got me laughing this time was the steamed crab :lol: . I guess I find humor in most things and it isn't always funny to someone else. Forgive me if I've offended you. :(

[becky]

I was jesting when I said stop laughing!
I was wondering if you guys thought this was bad, though. I fight the good fight alone here at home- I need your support here :wink:
No offense taken at all.

[Jackie]

For what it's worth, I would have thrown it out, too. I agree there is a difference when you see something out "natural", so to speak. You might want to use that as a "teachable moment" or just kind of rush past, as is more appropriate for your kids. But in a children's board book, where the kids are obviously too young for an explanation, is different.

I was at camp once with a group of inner city kids, where we saw some animals going at it, so to speak. The one boy got all excited, "LOOK! THEY'RE F'ING!" Only he said the actual word. This very proper church gal was embarrassed to death!

[Kathe]

Well ... since this is still being discussed, I may as well throw in another two cents, which is what ... about .00000000001 cents Canadian ???

I would be VERY surprised if I saw such a thing in a child's book, but I don't think I would throw it out, or any such reaction.

I can't help but think that we have intensified the shock such moments bring by perhaps having a "hush" "hush" attitude toward a supposed "impropriety" regarding sex and young children. Such happenings are perfectly normal and the "hushing" and the giggles come when the impression is left that something is "naughty."

In our home, we're very free about such things and personally don't see how a goat's erection pictured in a book (albeit maybe not a little kiddies board book) is any different than seeing it out in the open at a zoo as far as using it as a teachable moment. All moments are teachable moments ... including the one in which the little boy used the "f" word. At least that's how we are here.

Are African women's hanging breasts in a National Geographic Magazine offensive too ???

That's just my view ... clearly bohemian based on the preceding posts.

Anyway, don't lynch me LOL. I did concede the point that it IS very shocking that the picture was in a little kiddies board book.

Kathe

[Jackie]

No, I wouldn't find the pictures in National Geographic offensive, but at the same time we were surprised about the amount of nudity in the Usbourne hsitory book. DH decided that he didn't want us using it with the kids, because a good bit of it wasn't necessary. Some of it, such as dipicting the Olympic athletes naked, were "normal"...after all, that is how the performed. But others seemed very out of place. For me, the question is if it's necessary. And in a children's book, especially a board book, it is NOT necessary and I think inappropriate.

[Jackie]

The above censoring was the board, not me! I'm not THAT bad, Kathe! :)

[Kathe]

Are we talking about the Usborne Internet Linked Encyclopedia of World History ??? I have that book but haven't perused every single page, evidently. Either that, or we're not referring to the same book.

There was a person on the used Canadian book site I frequent, who was selling a copy of an Usborne book, and told everyone that bathing suits were drawn on the pictures that were supposedly "offensive".... now THAT, to me, is censorship. I wanted the book, but I want to be the one to decide if it's not appropriate, not someone else who passes on their judgements, and expects me to pay them for such. I chose to buy the book new ... I'm going to have to comb through it, I guess.

Hey Jackie ... what exactly was the word you used that was censored out ... I'm nosey and curious. Did it rhyme with "grasses" or "huts" or "stinks" ... hmmmm ????

[Jackie]

None of the above! The word I used was n-a-k-e-d. (I'm hoping by spelling it I can get past the censors. Sorry, Amanda!)

The book I have is "The Usborne Book of World History". It's not the Internet linked book. I didn't notice at first, other than the very prominent picture of the Olympic athletes. But we had talked about it before we came to this board, so I went looking. For example, on pg. 148, it shows an Indian village. The men are wearing loin cloths (which is to be expected) and the women wear dress-like oufits, covered from shoulder to knees. But down below, there's a picture of Pocahontas saving Captain John Smith. Pocahontas is topless in it. It's a back/side picture with a very definate breast (complete with nipple) showing. It's very out of place, especially since the others in village picture aren't topless. On page 123, it shows native Africans hunting totally (I almost used that word again!). This doesn't bother me particulary, though I wonder if the didn't wear SOMETHING. Another page has a battle with a man fighting n****. A note is made that many fought this way to show courage; that doesn't bother me, nor does the statue of the goddess Ishtar.There's a lot of topless women in the Egyptian sections, and they do bother me. I guess I've never seen it under Egypt before, and don't see why it needs to be there now. For example, a picture of a woman baking bread topless.

I think I would be upset if I were to buy a book and find that someone had drew "swimsuits" on figures.

[becky]

Funny the Usborne books came up. I got a catalog the other day that had a curriculum that included Usborne books, but I forget for what subject. This catalog suggested coloring over the pictures that were offensive.
Usborne sounds funky....
I've bought some of their story books at a thrift store already and they were cute.

[becky]

Kathe, I cannot imagine what rhymes with 'stinks', but I needed that laugh!
Thanks, girl.

[Kathe]

Sure you can, girl !!! It rhymes with "stinks" and starts with a "d". I was trying to figure out what five letter word she had used that would be on the Olympic athletes .... what I neglected to notice was that "athletes" was plural, not possessive. MY BAD.

:oops: :P

[Jackie]

Yes, Girl, YOU BAD!!! I wondered why you were having so much trouble trying to figure out what was censured!

[becky]

I'm green, I guess, or the 'n' is throwing me......
We better lighten up or we'll get moderated :wink:

[Kathe]

Ok .. how about rhymes with W . I . N . K . S then replace the "W" with the "D."

Honestly ... tell me you've heard THAT word before !!!!

Kathe

[becky]

DINKS?!?!??? :lol: :lol:
Are you kidding me????? :lol:
What is that??? :lol: :lol:
Is that Canadian slang?
Kathe, you crack me up!!!

[Kathe]

WOOHOO ... she said it even !!! I knew it ... EVERYONE knows that word ... and this will get me lynched for sure, but even the fundamentalist Christians know THAT one !!!

But sssshhhhhh ... they would lynch me cuz of my peace sign on the left. They think it's the sign of ssssssssshhhhhhhhhhSATANsssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhh.

Kathe

[Brooke]

Well, I consider myself a fundamental Christian and I haven't lynched anyone to date....of course, I'm not even 30 yet, so I still have time :wink:

I have never heard that last slang term you used, and I've been around the block.....

About the peace sign.....well, we'll just leave that one at the doorstep :roll: :lol:

[Brenda]

Go to a public school and I would bet my life that you would hear that slang word around there (I know you would in our community - it's said more than yes or no or please and thank you).

As for the board book and the pictures that lie within, I think it is repulsive that someone would choose to allow those pictures to be printed! When I think of board books, I think of very young children - of what importance is the anatomy of a goat (reproductive functioning anyway) to a three or four year old? Yes, it is the way God designed them to be and if you were to go to a zoo you might see that, but not in a book!

This reminds me of the curriculum we're having crammed down our throats here - it's absolutely repulsive! (I won't touch this one anymore - makes me MAD :x and sick to my stomach).

As a mom, I want to be the one who teaches all of my children the neccessities of life and I'm sorry but that doesn't include the anatomy of a goat (nor the explicit depictions of the male/female reproductive systems as our middle school health curriculum does).

Becky, if I were in your shoes, I would be absolutely irrate (as I'm sure you probably are) and would have brought the book back. Such a sad world we live in. They managed to pollute the minds of public school children with their crude curriculum (in their minds their probably saying mission accomplished) and so now they're working on polluting the minds of pre-school children!!!

PLEASE...No offense meant to anyone at all - just venting.
Brenda

[Jackie]

Reminds me of when I was in a Health Science class LOOOOOOONNNNNNGGGGG ago. We were having a class on the birds and the bees, and the teacher asked if anyone knew what a "prophylactic" was. No response. What about a "condom"? One boy tentatively raised his hand. Wasn't it kind of like an apartment? (This was back when condos were a new thing). What about a "rubber"? And ALL the boys raised their hands on that one! (We were about 13 or 14 at the time).

[Jimmie Lu]

Where is this conversation going???

[Jackie]

Sorry, Jimmy Lu. I promise to be good!

[becky]

I must be a really good kid, because I still don't know that word. Maybe if there was no n, like I said before...

Kathe, one year at Awana my niece was doing face painting. She made peace signs on some of the kids, and I got ordered to make her stop. The pastor's wife was too busy looking important to do it herself. Before that I had never heard controversy with the peace sign. Isn't that why they call it a peace sign? I was too small then, but wasn't it used to protest the Vietnam war?
Would someone tell me exactly why the peace sign is supposed to be bad?

[Jackie]

What I heard is that it was an upside-down broken cross that was used in Satanic rituals. Of course, that's just what I've "heard" once upon a time. Don't know whether it's true or not, but I also know that most people who use a "peace" sign means it just as a "peace" sign.

[Brenda]

Becky,

Do you still go to AWANA? (That's my passion - the ministry is AWESOME)

Sorry to get off topic...(but I guess that's the name fo the thread right)
Brenda

[Brooke]

Jackie gave a good discription of the peace sign issue. It is also encompassed by a circle, which I believe to typically symbolize Satan's control over it. It is used that way in occult symbolism (pentagram, for example).

I used to wear a peace sign in school until a friend of mine told me about all that. I still didn't buy it, but I removed it because it offended her. Then, as an adult, my husband and I had been studying various cult-related things in pop-culture and I read more about it then.

[Jimmie Lu]

I am far from offended!! I thought this started as a discussion about a childs book with a goat with a penius. Personally I would not throw it out. I would have tucked it away until the child was old enough to understand. Then again my sisters were older and very open with me about the facts and I try to keep it that way. No kid believes the stork left him on the door step anymore. Do they? I don't know! Any way we have a 10 yr 8 yr and 6 yr old. I would not have been ashamed if my 6 yr old pointed out that the goat had a "winkie". I guess I would have tried to explaine they were making baby goats. My sons are young enough to think if you kiss a girl you gotta marry her and that hugging with out a shirt will produce a baby. Ha that sounds funny to me. Keep the book it may be of educational use one day.

[becky]

Does everyone understand this book wasn't educational, except to tell you the name of the animals?
No, our church does not have Awana anymore. I was a Cubbies leader, and a Sparks Director and Leader.
I did not like Awana, at least how it was done at my church. In Cubbies, one of the other leaders decided she would call all the shots, so I stood around for 2 hrs each week.
I left midyear.
In Sparks I was a leader under a husband and wife that were a pair of phonies.They told me to come up with activities to do with my Sparkle Time group, and I did. Well, they were not doing things with their groups. My kids would tell their kids what we did together, and apparently the other kids asked why they didn't have outings and such. I got told to stop because I was creating jealousy and that's not good for the club.
I was encouraged to go through the Skipper, Climber and Hiker handbooks with the kids. Everytime I tried to let the kids in my group hear my verses the husband or wife would find a reason to interrupt, and my book never got signed. I always made sure my kids were done and that no other kids were waiting to be heard. It ended up they were not going through the books, and I guess they felt I was going to make them look bad.
I had to ask another leader and the Commander to sign my stupid book!!
I left Awana during my first year as Sparks Director. After the husband/wife directors left, their little girl was still in that class. They would find a reason to come in the class every few minutes, and the class just never got a chance to settle into a groove with me as director. Kids wouldn't say their verses, parents got upset. The last straw was when a girl disqualified herself from the Awana Olympics because she didn't pass enough sections. Her mom blamed me and went to the pastor and Commander about it. The child was allowed to go. What was the point of setting rules if they will be foregone when someone complains? According to Director handbooks, sections aren't even to be signed off on if the kids can't tell you what the verses mean. I tried to enforce that, but was told that's too much to expect. These weren't big, flowery verses, either.
I'm glad to be out of it, and I wouldn't put Jeannie in it if I had the chance. In theory it might be an okay program, but personalities can really ruin something good.

[becky]

... and none of the incidents I just described touched on the melee that was created when I told the class we needed to 'shut up and come on' before we ran out of time.
You'd have thought I blasphemed.
I got told shut up is swear words. I got told by one parent that hush up is okay. I don't see a large difference there. I got told to apologize, and don't begin by saying 'if I offended you', because of course I offended everyone. Can you imagine?
To me, 'be quiet' can sound harsh depending on how you say it.
Remember, this class was being interrupted every few minutes. I was probably at the end of my rope.
I laugh at it now, because there's a lot of hypocrites at my church. If it wasn't for their Children's Church program I wouldn't stay there.
I must have done something right in that program, because I was a teacher from'94-02 and director from '96-02!

[Jackie]

Becky, I'm so sorry you had such a bad experience with AWANAS! We've been involved with the program now for about 7 years, and love it. Our adults have all been wonderful, caring people. My cousin brought her Cubbie son, who had a little speech problem and didn't talk much. She was concerned that he wouldn't "say" his verses. They weren't concerned about it, told her that they would ask him questions and not worry about him "saying" it. My one daughter can be a little...difficult. One leader (who also had a "difficult" child) understood her. She chose my Faythe as her "special friend" so that she could sit next to Faythe...as a friend, rather than as an adult trying to keep her under control. One leader has a sleep-over for the 3rd and 4th grade girls each year; it is a highlight for the kids! And anyone who finished the book gets to go to a free end-of-year party. My girls have learned so much there!

[Brenda]

Ha Ha! I think I found some more AWANA addicts :D :D :D

Sorry.

Now back to the regularly scheduled program.

Brenda

[becky]

Oh, I enjoyed my activities with my Sparkle Time group. I let the girls decorate our tree here at the house that Christmas. We took supplies to a lady that gives groceries and personal supplies to shut-ins.
I would send birthday cards to the kids, if I remember correctly.
The wife, who was director before me, would come into the class at least four times a night. She would stand almost beside me and talk to another adult as I was trying to collect dues and make announcements. She criticized the way I had the kids divided up for verses, right in front of the class.
These are very pompous people. When I would send cards to their daughter they would throw them away. The child asked me in class why I never send her a card. I told her to ask her mom and dad what address I should use, as though I used the wrong one. Finally, I told her I indeed sent her cards and she would have to ask her parents where they were.
Once I got out of the classes I quit sending her a birthday card, because why waste a stamp?

[Kathe]

That's exactly the 'view' I was talking about ... so I'll take a moment to present my thoughts since others have.

If you do an INFORMED search for "peace sign" on the internet, you'll find many that describe its usage by anti-war protestors, and how its shape is formed from a letter N and D, inside a "non" circle similar to a "non-smoking" sign. Those letters were to do with NNNNNNNNNuclear DDDDDDDDDDDisarmament.

In THAT context it's clear that the movers for peace in the 60's meant NOTHING Satan-related. In other words, if you asked someone back then, or now, "Do you worship Satan and does that sign indicate thusly," you'd get a "NO", after being laughed off the face of the earth.

Having said that, we better stop using hearts to decorate things, as well as eggs, bunnies etc at Easter time, because they are proven links to the pagan origins in such holidays. Check out the rituals connected with the Roman Saturnalia ... commonly called "Christmas." All PAGAN in origin.

That was not meant to inflame ... have eggs and bunnies all you want ... hearts even. My point is, if you go looking for something bad in everything, you'll surely find it. View it as the user intends, indeed as all peace lovers intend.

That's the only reason I brought it up in the first place ... since I was having a hard time believing the publishers of the little book really intended something BAD. I related it to my own use of a peace sign under my name ... and how I don't mean the BAD that some view it to be. Evidently, I just may have started something that I won't finish.

I just can't go looking for the bad in everything ... so much of it glares us right in the face. So, our opinions differ ... some think it's bad, I don't. Many think a twisted, distortion of the shape of the peace sign, in it's TRUE 1960's context, makes it BAD and that's fine too.

Kathe

PS And no ... I'm not offended, nor did I intend to offend anyone else.

[Jimmie Lu]

I don't see the N and D in your little sign. Nor do I find it offensive. You are correct in the eggs and bunnies. Even the christmas tree roots back to pagan gods. I feel your peace sign is not something bad. My hair dresser is and origanal hippie. (she admits it) We all add a little spice to the pot of life!

[Jackie]

Kathe that's exactly why I said I felt that most people using a peace sign mean it as a peace sign and nothing more. Same with rainbows. I do an awful lot of ordering from Rainbow Resources, and I don't worry about whether they support homosexuality! (But when I first went on line searching for this "rainbow" company everyone was looking for, I sure did find more than I bargained for!!!)

[Brooke]

I'm with ya, ladies. Like I said before, I stopped wearing a peace sign because it offended my friend. I believe that we ought to not make our brothers and sisters stumble, so bye-bye peace sign.

There is a local university that observes "Denim Day" in support of gays and lesbians. I'm sure that nobody has assumed that denim is unrighteous because a certain group declared it to be "theirs". But, as with not wearing a peace sign for my friend's sake, I wouldn't wear denim on "Denim Day" either because of what the greater group sees it as signifying.

[Kathe]

Jimmie Lu ...

You'd have to read a better explanation than I could give here. I'm not asking anyone to change their minds, but at least please check out the first link and scroll down ... there you can 'see' where it comes from. The "n" and "d" thing is also explained at the third link.

Objectively, they all make more sense to me than a 'drooping cross.'

http://www.peaceday.org/pcsign.htm
http://www.symbols.com/encyclopedia/24/247.html
http://www.abcme.com/peacesigncollection/peacesigncoll.html

I'm not hiding a thing as you'll see ... the other more fundamentalist views are mentioned at the third link as well. However, given the times in which the peace sign became popular, it's intended 'message' is quite clear.

I have actually read sites where the peace sign was bashed SO badly, that every aspect of it was torn apart. You couldn't even pick a color, because every one of THOSE meant something, too. Now ... I smell Pharisee !!!! Talk about "straining out the gnat!!"

Thanks for the support. As for Paganism rooted in many "Christian" customs; sadly there are many, many more.

Jackie ....

It's funny you mention the 'rainbow' thing, because there is actually a VERY distinctive rainbow pattern that is SUPPOSED to mean gay pride, but not EVERY rainbow does so. Of course I wouldn't sport that particular type of rainbow, because I'm NOT gay, but I wouldn't avoid every other type of rainbow because of it, either.

You can actually see the difference I'm speaking of on Ebay. Many 'gay pride' items are sold there, and most always the rainbow stripes are horizontally parallel, with distinctive breaks between colors; as opposed to a more curved or swirling type rainbow with one color flowing into the next.

Kathe

[Jackie]

Kathe, I was like Jimmy Lu where the ND made no sense whatsoever. I was looking for actual letters, and couldn't see them. So I did click on the one site and discovered it was the position of flags representing those letters. OHHHHHH! THAT makes sense now!

Concerning the "tearing it all apart:", I had the oportunity to hear Peter, Paul and Mary in concert MANY years ago. Peter Yarrow did a fantastic routine about "Puff, the Magic Dragon". He told about how when the song was written, they didn't KNOW that they were REALLY writing about marjuana and after reading the all the evidence, they knew that must have been deep in their subconcious, etc. ANd then they started looking at songs written by OTHER people, and seeing all the subliminal meanings behind it. And, after careful examination of the evidence, they are now certain that Francis Scott Key was obviously a junkie, because there's no doubt in their minds that the Star Spangled Banner is about drugs.........

[becky]

Here's one for ya-
The Christmas Jeannie was 1 I happened to find these large TeleTubbies at Ollies. These things are huge! They only had the yellow, green and red one. I asked where was the purple one, because I wanted the whole set. The cashier told me they won't sell the purple one because he represents gays.
I just stood there.
When I got home I called and talked to the manager. I asked if they had the purple one in the back, that I could buy on the sly. I explained what the cashier said, told them it's not their place to decide what I can or cannot buy.
He said it wasn't them, it was the store they got the Tubbies from who would not carry the purple one.
To me, that's dense. Aren't the Tubbies supposed to be babies?

[Jackie]

Oh, yes, I remember all that stuff! My kids "missed out" not because of any gay issues, but because we don't have Cable and watch very little T.V. We "never did" Barney for the same reasons, or the Wiggles, though my MIL has the Wiggles and puts them on for her other two grandkids that she babysits, so my kids will watch them over there sometimes. Again, it's not anything about them being "wrong", but not watching much T.V. in general.

[Jimmie Lu]

I have an opinion and its just my opinion. As Christians we must be very careful in what we involve ourselves in. If we are ignorant of a hidden meaning that is excusable. If we know and say I don,t care we are knowingly involving ourselves in uncleanlyness. We have not cable TV because of its influance. The kids watch very little TV and it is useually approved by us first. (sounds strict hunh) Ok so my kiddies were at grammas house and wanted to know why they couldnt watch a particular show even gramma was wondering. There are a lot of hidden sexual messages hidden in todays TV shows that are alot more discriptive than that of Dick Van Dike and I Love Lucy. This is my choice. As Carmen once put it in a song he did "garbage in garbage out" We could say for example that Kathe should not display her sign because under her name is a quote from John Lennon. That is her choice. MAybe she listens to Jon Lennon and maybe she just likes the quote. Her decision. Personally we do not color easter eggs go trick or treating or display a Christmas tree. (relax Ill explaine why) We are not Jehovahs witnesses either. The egg has absolutly nothing to do with the resurection of Christ so why do it. It comes from the pagan god of fertility. People believed that they could color an egg and would be honored by the request of boy/girl babies. Trick or treating is not something we practice for many reasons including safety and its wrong to "trick"people.Now on to my most disputed the christmas tree. I know this is going to spark controversy. I am not condeming those who choose to put up a tree however in God's word (old testament) He warns against fasting a tree with nails and adorning it with silve and gold. Then there is the pagan backgroun that says this queen had a tree cut down at christmas time because her hsband was killed she believed if the tree came back to life her husband would come from the dead and impregnate her so his fortune would not be lost. Legan says the tree came to life and the woman bore a son. Fables.
Tell me what a tree has to do with the birth of christ when this woman ordered the worship of trees adorned with silver and gold at christmas. Maybe you think Im a scrooge. We have plenty of fun at christmas and it doesnot include a fat guy in a red suit. Please be easy on me as I know someone is offended with my belief. I have the same argument with my sister in law every Christmas First she needed a tree because she liked the way it smelled. The following year she had a fake tree. She insists that the tree is not an idol. and maybe you feel that way also. my only response is to her and anyone is " If its not an idol don't put it up this year and I'll bet you will have a good holiday anyway" I decorate with my little villages and lights even the christmas card wall we create is a tradition the kids and I enjoy. There are alot of things out there that have alot of meanings behind it. In fact the rainbow's origin was God's promise to us He would not distroy the Earth with water again. Seems to me I might not purchase from a company knowing they give to a cause I am against. But I might have to quit shopping altogether.

[Kathe]

Jimmie Lu ...

You Go Girl !!! LOL j/k

Actually, you could go even further as to the practices behind "Christmas." Nearly everyone knows December 25 isn't even Christ's birthday, yet celebrate it anyway. That's the connection to the Roman Saturnalia ... but that's a whole other kettle of fish.

You're right though ... perhaps people DON'T like my John Lennon quotation and perhaps they don't like my peace sign either. However, if you READ it, and know the ensuing lyrical line, then perhaps it may add meaning to why I've chosen it. Curiously, many likely dismissed either or both with disdain, rather than learning or asking why I chose it. I've not made any anti-war sentiments, bashed any political figure, OR criticized people who favor war and/or political strategies.

As I stand before the true God, I'm not practicing anything while covering over what the Bible really says about it ... I'm just using a quotation to express a sentiment and wish for peace, which only He will bring.

The average person, unfamiliar with the promises in the Bible WOULD say I'm a dreamer ...

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.
I hope some day you will join us, and the world will live as one." John Lennon

Kathe

[Brooke]

We've discussed the use of the Christmas tree in our home as well, but we don't have a conviction about it. I was always taught that it symbolizes (for Christians today) a tree that remains green and lush and doesn't "die" in the winter. To go further, today we also can see the symbolism of the tree that the cross was made from. Our family has many traditions with a Christmas tree, including a Swedish one where we put a bird's nest inside and a spike to represent the nails in Jesus's body.

I absolutely refuse to let pagan tree worshipping shy me away from enjoying the beauty of God's creation. We have trees in our yard, even a palm tree in our house, and I love to tend a garden indoors and out. Does this mean I am in support of worshipping nature? Not a chance.

I'd expound, but dh is leaving for work and I need to give him a smooch :D ....I'll maybe add more later......

[Brooke]

I'll quickly add that I will be looking up the passage that Jimmie Lu brought up about not decorating a tree........I am always open to the Word of God and we WILL change (and be convicted!) if we find that there is something that the Lord is wanting us to learn and change. Thanks for the topic...it has me thinking anyway.....

[Jackie]

Actually, I have a friend that doesn't celebrate Christmas at all. No, they are not "legalistic", and aren't what others might consider "far out" in other areas (other than they homeschool for religious reasons...I guess that makes them pretty radical, LOL!) And I'll tell you, there are times when I am fighting with my MIL over the number of presents she gives my kids, trying to decide what to buy all my neices and nephews, last minute shopping, etc. when I wish we could just chuck the whole celebration!

[Kathe]

Jeremiah 10:2-4, in case you didn't find it.

Basically, the use of green plants in pagan celebrations like the winter solstice was a symbol of life amid darkness and cold. They worshiped the trees in the forests, as well as the sun, and celebrated the return of the Sun, or its rebirth, after the Soltice.

The connection? Decorating a tree with lights is believed to be a throwback to these primitive tree-worshiping ceremonies, which featured green trees and light. Actually, there are a suprising number of green plants involved with Christmas ... holly and berries, pine, the yule log and mistetoe.

[Kathe]

ooops .. that's mistletoe. :roll:

[Brooke]

Hmmmm.....well, it seems to me that the scripture is speaking of making idols, in which case we don't worship the tree.....and in the case of this scripture, they were using the wood they cut to make idols and then plated them with silver or gold. I still think that Christmas trees are not worshiped, at least not by families that I know. It is a tradition, not a pagan ritual, to me. Although I completely honor others convictions, and respect the fact that those who believe it to be sin obey their conviction. For them it is sin.

It'd take some prayer on my end to have this revealed to me as something I needed to change my belief on.

[becky]

I never heard this stuff concerning Christmas trees. What passage is that?

[becky]

Duhhh!!! I need to take notice of what page I reply on!!!
Thanks for the passage.

[Brooke]

I think it is a matter of the application of the scripture.....I would not have thought to apply it to Christmas trees whereas Jimmie Lu does.

[Anonymous]

Exactly ... I was just posting the location of the scripture because someone had said they'd have to find it.

My own beliefs against Christmas have little to do with that scripture.

Kathe

[Jimmie Lu]

If its not an idol have a joyous holiday without it and see how creative your family can be!!

[Anne]

I guess I'll jump in here. I have read that Scripture passage many times in my regular Bible reading and I had heard the "no Christmas tree" reaction to the passage.

Once again, I've read it and I agree with Brooke, the passage speaks of making idols. Just to be on the safe side, I checked with DH, and he said the same thing.

So we will continue to decorate our tree. I do make a point of skipping Santa Claus altogether. We don't preach against him, just pretty much ignore him! We decorate our tree with things that remind us of our Savior, the true Reason for the season. (And yes, I know Jesus wasn't born on Dec. 25th!

We have celebrated Christmas without a tree before, and it was just as special without the tree. :-) I just don't see the connection between idols and a decorative tree, which no one I know has never bowed the knee to.

If we were to take out everything out of modern life that has pagan roots, we'd have to give up our calendar! For starters, the months are named after Roman gods!

I don't want to offend anyone by this post. Neither am I offended if someone has a differing opinion or conviction.

Blessings,

[becky]

What do you have against Christmas, Kathe?
I can't stand all the decorations, songs, etc., because after my dad died my mom got involved with an alchoholic. Each holiday started with booze the night before, all that day and the next. Even Labor Day.
Even songs like' Rudolph'... make me hear the arguing and smell the whiskey.
I'm so thankful my mom is saved now. Even she says she's glad toi be out from under that garbage.

[Brooke]

I would no sooner halt the tradition of a Christmas tree as I would the singing of hymns about the Word becoming flesh and dwelling among us. The tree has rich symbolism in my home for so many wonderful things to do with Christ that it would be silly to omit it just for the sake of satisfying a curiosity.

Just as I use the calendar even though it carries the names of pagan gods, and just as I take communion that others have perverted into a ritual of a work of their own other than grace, and just as I use a TV for educational purposes where others use it as a mode of illicit entertainment, I use a Christmas tree to symbolize something beautiful and ever-living--as well as rugged and blood-stained--when others use the tree to create diverse idols and worship nature.

Once again, I appreciate others' convictions about it and respect their dedication to honoring those convictions. I also realize that my reasoning above might not jive with all things, like we do not in any way, shape, or form celebrate or observe Halloween because of its meaning (which is alive and well today). I must plead the fact that people have convictions about different things and if they ignore them and partake in what they believe to be sin, then it is sin for them.

[Brenda]

Oh my... Go to work for a couple days and come back and see the conversation in a twist that now involves the Christmas tree (I'm not even sure that I want to touch that one).

On one of our wipe boards at work, one of my co-workers wrote "X" sleeps until Christmas and asked that the message not be erased (save Christmas from nurse grinch, etc...). Well, it was erased and great offense was taken by the one who wrote the original message (and a couple others). I wrote on the board yesterday and I'll make my comment here too - not looking for contraversy but to explain my viewpoint of it all.

Christmas time is the time of year we celebrate Jesus' birth. We gather together with family enjoying each other's comapny. Christmas time isn't supposed to be a challenge to see who go into debt trying to make purchases that really can't be afforded - what matters most (to me anyway) is the condition of your heart. The year that my husband had the (life altering) accident (2002) was the absolute best Christmas I can remember having. Presents wrapped under the tree weren't a priority for any of us - we were so thankful to be able to share Christmas together as a whole family celebrating the only reason why Tracy lived through the accident at all - JESUS.

We do decorate a tree - not because we want to idolize it - we decorate it with things that represent Jesus' birth - the stable, Mary, Joseph, The Three Wise Men and at the top of it we alternate from year to year - one year we have an Angel (representing the Angel who told Mary she would give birth to a son) and the Star (leading the Three Wise Men to the stable where Jesus was born). We used to put any old thing on it, but now we deliberately use things that represent Jesus - as a lesson for our boys and as a witness to others who come into our home who don't share the same viewpoint as we do (silent witnessing).

Christmas isn't about debt - it's about giving something that no amount of money could purchase - LOVE, TIME, ACCEPTANCE.

In years past, before we really appreciate the reason for Christmas, we went all out and the tree was covered with presents that we exchanged (or that "Santa" would bring). This year will be different for us... Jesus was given three gifts when He was born (gold, frankencense and myrh) and we will implement the same thing here. No more Santa in our home. Three gifts each...that's it, that's all (I can't control what others give to the boys but as for my husband and I that's what our plan is). To give more than that defeats the whole purpose of Christmas - why go in debt - the season isn't even about US - it's about Jesus! To continue the Santa thing would be lying to our children (and two of them don't believe in him anymore anyway). They've all made a personal commitment with Jesus and so instead of worshipping some thing that isn't real, the focus is being turned to where it needs to be - on Jesus.

Sorry for the rambling...NO OFFENSE meant to anyone please. We all have different ideas of what is right and what is wrong. We are all driven by different things and our motives in doing something may be different from others.

I guess I'm naive...Kathe, I never thought of the symbol under your name as being anything other than a peace offering (but then I didn't know the history of it either). I like being naive - it keeps me out of trouble sometimes...

Sorry ladies, again NO OFFENSE meant to anyone at all,
God bless,
Brenda

[Kathe]

Brenda ...

It IS a peace offering. In a time when people are convinced through propaganda that war is the answer, I want to be recognized as a peace lover. It has a deeper meaning for me, though, as I've explained in that I KNOW peace won't come by man's means. In the meantime, I can still hope that others will join me in recognizing that.

Beyond that, it's also a reminder of a kinder, gentler time when people had a much different world view and sang about things some would call naive today. We could all use more 'peace and love' and a lot less violence and hatred.

Kathe

[Kathe]

Becky ..

I pm'ed you. :D

[becky]

Hey, Kathe- it's 4:35p.m. here, but I don't see your message yet...

[Kathe]

Really? I did it last night. When you sign in, beside the "profile" icon, you don't see anything saying "You have 1 new message?"

[becky]

Yep, it says I have no new messages....

[Anonymous]

LOl this is a funny thread!. You crack me up with w.i.n.k.s. I was trying to figure this out myself then you put the D and like that Canadian lady no the wiser lol and I am a Christian 'fundamentilist' :) I don't think we use that word over here and by the sound of it maybe I don't want to know. lol.

Jo from Australia

[becky]

I just recently got my little girl a similar book from the library, but this one is from Dorling- Kindersly(sp?)
No offensive stuff this time.
I'll stay away from Dollar Tree looking books.

[Lornaabc]

:oops:
I don't know what it means either.

[becky]

I asked Kathe if it was Canadian slang!