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Ohio Mom
01-22-2007, 05:24 PM
I thought this was very interesting. What more are they going to tell us we can't do?http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,245218,00.html

Bry's-Gal
01-22-2007, 06:39 PM
My minister mentioned that during his sermon yesterday. I was shocked and appalled. I have a very strong-willed 2 1/2 yr old. She could care less if I take her toys away. Time-out barely bothers her. A lot of times, a spanking is the only thing that matters to her.

becky
01-22-2007, 06:41 PM
I agree with a law like this, though. It's about spanking a child under 4 yrs old. Outright 'wap-wap-wap-' spanking on a child that small isn't needed. NOW- what they are going to have to be careful of is not getting all bent out of shape at the parent who swats- one swat- the butt of a toddler reaching for the hot stove after being told not to. There's a big difference there, and they will need to find a way to differentiate.

There was a story some time ago in our paper where a dad had spanked his little one -still in diapers- and left black and blue marks on its butt. If nuts would be sterile upon birth we wouldn't needs all this oversight...

Jackie
01-22-2007, 07:38 PM
No, Becky, I disagree. First of all, people will consider that "one swat" a "spank". And sometimes a child as young as three or four DOES need an actual "spanking", more than that "swat". If you don't, you'll have an out of control child on down the road. There will always be people who abuse children. They need to be dealt with. But I still don't want anyone telling me how I can or cannot discipline my child.

becky
01-22-2007, 07:42 PM
I don't see how they could enforce such a law, anyway. Don't they have larger issues out there to deal with??

Jackie
01-22-2007, 07:44 PM
Very good point. But if you had a child running out from behind a car in a parking lot and you gave them that "swat", I could see someone calling Children's Services on you.

Jennifer R
01-22-2007, 07:50 PM
A few years ago I had an incident with Joyce where she was mad at me for not buying something she wanted in the gas station so she refused to get in the van and was in fact running around it. Next thing I know I have the town's Police Chief standing beside us. He talked her into the van but at the same time told her he should let me have his belt!! I'm thinking "yeah, right, if I were to even spank her I would probably have been arrested!". I still hold it over her head about the time the PC had to make her get in the car!

sloan127
01-22-2007, 08:01 PM
We do not spank. We did in the past but not since we had a foster child whose father lost his temper while spanking his son and beat him black and blue from his waist down to the back of his knees. The child was 2 and a half. I know I would never do that to one of mine but that was just too much for me.

Deena
01-22-2007, 09:32 PM
Our oldest was the only one we needed to spank. I say "needed to", because he would act worse and worse and worse, we'd try all the other things we could think of, and nothing would work. Then we would spank him, and it almost seemed like a relief to him almost. It was interesting. But then he'd be good as gold for some time.

Beth, my mom was a nurse down in the Loma Linda (CA)Medical Center. They had a 2 year old come in with a crushed chest--ribs broken, lungs puctured, barely hanging on to life. Why? Because the dad was working on him "to be a man!" They were outside playing football, and the ball hit the boy and he cried. So daddy was shoving on him, and throwing the ball hard at him, so help him be a man! Aaaahhhhh! How could anyone do such a thing?!!!

Emma's#1fan
01-22-2007, 09:37 PM
Oh! That is sickening.

Jackie
01-22-2007, 09:58 PM
There are many methods of discipline. All of them can be abused. None of them are effective on EVERY child. But spanking IS an option, and I believe we need to KEEP it an option. It is wrong for the government to take that option away from us.

When you are dealing with a child who has been physically abused, spanking surely is NOT an option!

AussieMum
01-23-2007, 02:28 AM
Since the toddler was hurt playinf football - perhaps we should ban football?!
There will always be those who take things to the extreme - if we banned all those things instead of dealing with the perpetrators then no-one would be permitted to bo anything.

Jackie
01-23-2007, 05:59 AM
Well said, A'mum!

sloan127
01-23-2007, 06:31 AM
Years ago I worked at the telephone company and Bill was in daycare. The owner had a policy that when they talked to a child who had done something wrong they would face the child, get down at their level and hold the child's wrists so they had to face the worker. I told the lady not to do that with Bill because he had been abused and felt threatened if his hands were held like that and he would kick you. She said okay but she forgot or thought I didn't know what I was talking about. One day I went in to get him and she was limping. She said Bill had done something that she needed to talk to him about and she took him by both wrists and held him in front of her to talk to him and he hauled off and kicked the fire out of her leg! She seemed to want me to get upset with him and do something but I told her I was sorry it had happened but didn't she remember that I told her he would do just that? She never liked me very much after that. I have seen kids who thought a spanking was nothing and others who were traumatised by it. You have to know how to discipline each child individually in my opinion.

Jackie
01-23-2007, 07:15 AM
Rachael was one of those rare child that you could actually reason with at a young age! I did very little spanking with her. Faythe, on the other hand....

I was use to wlrking with Deaf children. With them, I would place my hand on the side of their face to make sure they were LOOKING at me when I spoke, or else they didn't "hear" me. So without thinking I one day tried to do it to a hearing kid "with an attitude". Boy, he flinched when I started to bring up my hand!!! I backed off right away, because I felt it was an error on MY part, not his!

becky
01-23-2007, 07:35 AM
They'd have to even define spanking. Is it the small swat I referred to? Is it with a hand or a belt? There's so much to this that I wonder if they realize what they started out there.

MonkeyMamma
01-23-2007, 08:47 AM
There are many methods of discipline. All of them can be abused. None of them are effective on EVERY child. But spanking IS an option, and I believe we need to KEEP it an option. It is wrong for the government to take that option away from us.

When you are dealing with a child who has been physically abused, spanking surely is NOT an option!

That is so true Jackie.

I think the govrnment is far to invloved in our lives to begin with and for some big wig in office to tell me I can't spank MY CHILD if I feel it necessary is absurd and insulting.

pecangrove
01-23-2007, 08:50 AM
I am not for any law telling parents how to raise there children. Not that every law would be awful, but all it takes is one to get passed, then those who think they know best would keep taking it a step further until we would have no say over our own children.
I think this is just a huge glaring sign that our government is getting way too big. It is not their business how we discipline (not abuse) our children.

timkelmom
01-23-2007, 09:15 AM
The government has no right to interefere with the raising of other people's children. People should discipline how they see fit. What works for some does not always work for others.

Most people have the common sense to know the difference between a swat or two and abuse.

We can not allow laws like this. California parents should be furious.

KrisRV
01-23-2007, 09:57 AM
Well I will tell you ladies what happen to us a few years back. We were in good old Wally World shopping and were waiting in line to check out when my oldest wanted a candy bar her daddy told her no we were having lunch soon she got so mad she sat on the floor and throw a fit then started throwing candy bars all over the place. My dh picked her up and gave her a pat on the butt I mean pat she was still in diapers too. So, I know she could hardly feel it. She stop and stood there and said ok then. There was a older lady behind us and she got very upset and told my dh he shouldn't do it. I said do you have children she said no. I said then... and left it at that. During that time my dh was going through chemo treatments. Guess what the next day Social workers were at our door checking my dd over. Man some people can't even mind there own business. Nothing became of it. But, my dh felt bad about it and he wasn't feeling good at the time. Social workers checked her over good, our house and see if we were clean people it was just a pain more then anything.

Ohio Mom
01-23-2007, 10:08 AM
If the government has the right to tell us we are not allowed to spank our children, they will then feel they can tell us where we have to send our children to school, where we have to send our children to worship, and on and on and on. We will not have any control over our children at all. What does that remind you of??? I say keep out of my children/grandchildrens lives, God gave them to us to raise, nobody else. I know this is not the Christian area - but - the Bible does say "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes" "The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame".

Emma's#1fan
01-23-2007, 11:36 AM
Unfortunately we are under a godless government.

Kris, did SS have a warrent to enter your home? In California they cannot enter your home without a warrant, which means they have to have probable cause to get a warrent issued by a judge. This doesn't mean all SS workers or CPS follow the law. They have unlawfully entered into far to many California homes without consent. The only way they can enter without a warrent around here is if they see it as an emergency and even then they need legitimate reasons. Since some SS workers, etc... do not abide by the law and California being a sue happy state, people are getting them in the pocket book where it hurts. Unfortunately many California homeschoolers and people in general do not realize because of the Calabretta v. Floyd, civil rights lawsuit, all social workers can not enter the home legally without a warrent. This is not simply for homeschoolers either. Officials are not immune to having to follow the law, although some think they are.:roll:
The Calabretta is a binding authority throughout the Ninth Circuit-Alaska, Arizona, California, Guam, Hawaii, Idaho, Montana, Nevada, Northern Mariana Islands, Oregon, and Washington.
I have a copy that I keep by my door because HSLDA said it would be wise to hand it to the authorities if they ever try to enter our home without a warrent.
Patty

CrystalCA
01-23-2007, 12:15 PM
Just a little backstory to this story... they are modeling this "law" after ones that are already in place in some European countries. Sweden,Norway,Denmark, etc, they all have a law just like this. So be warned..if you go to Europe and spank your kids in public you ,may be in a lot of trouble!
A few "expects" and the writer of this law were on Good Morning America Saturday, it was a very heated debate. The childcare expects keep saying it was a needed law that children younger then 3 can not understand why they were being spanked, that they just think you are being mean. Well the opposing voice ( the expert againist the law) said that if a puppy can learn potty training and not to bite things and understand that it will get spanked for that then a child should be able to understand that concept also. Man you would have thought World War 3 broke out after he said that! The Childcare experts were all yelling at him and the hosts of the show were kind of laughing, it was something else!
IMO this is VERY dangerous, slipper slope that we, as a country ,are on. Ohio Grandma has it right, next they will pass this "law" , they already passed a "law" againist trans-fat and foie gra(duck livers) because it was making people fat and costing the government Medical/Medicare money, who is to say that the next 'law" will NOT be about homeschooling? Its just a matter of WHEN not if anymore. If we start now by saying this law is wrong ,then they will know that parents are not going to let the government run our PERSONAL lives.

Bry's-Gal
01-23-2007, 12:24 PM
My husband had a point. If it comes down to following God's law or the law of the land, we need to follow God's law. Not all children need to be spanked. I've dealt with children that a simple no is traumatic to them. I've met other children that weigh consequence against the action and will still do the action- I'm raising one :D
Also, if it comes down to smacking my child's hand to keep them from touching a hot stove- I would rather my child be temporarily hurt from a smack, then permantly scarred from touching the stove.

KrisRV
01-23-2007, 01:31 PM
Patty, I they didn't have a warrent. At that time in life I didn't know they had too. My life was mess then, two very young children and a sick dh. I was so stress out.

Ava Rose
01-23-2007, 02:05 PM
First of all, spanking is NOT abuse. I don't think a law needs to be in place for those who cannot control their anger. I have a 20 month old and I have swatted her. My other kids were spanked under 4. I also think it is insane that the article implied someone would spank an infant or a newborn. I am not for any law that takes away parental rights. NO matter how you feel about spanking, you need to see where this is heading. The state should not be allowed to tell us how to raise our kids. Where does it stop? As Jackie said, there will always be child abuse. Those people need to be dealt with in an approiate manner. I am also insulted that I would be lumped in the same catorgory as a man who beat his kid black and blue. I mean c'mon!

Sloan, I understand why you hesitate to spank. I think you are being wise. A child who was a victim of abuse needs special handling and attention. However, there is a difference between that child and my children. My children are not abused. My children are not tramatized by getting spanked. In fact, when my kids see other kids in stores acting crazy, my dd even says they need to be spanked. lol. Oh, and Sloan, I am not directing comments at you...I think you are making very considerate and wise decisions. I thank God for people like yourself, who take in foster kids and treat them with such love.

Emma's#1fan
01-23-2007, 02:07 PM
Kris, that must have been nerve recking. SS appears to hold a lot of authority and sadly many abuse their power. I'm sorry that happened to you.
Patty

Emma's#1fan
01-23-2007, 02:17 PM
This law will not stop abuse. Abusers will continue to abuse others. The law will attempt to distract others, who do not abuse, from disciplining their children as they see fit. I think they need to focus on the laws that deal with the consequences abusers will face because abusers are not going to go away due a law.
Patty

Ohio Mom
01-23-2007, 02:38 PM
Another thing, think about the children who will be out of control because they know that they will not be allowed to be spanked - if this country stops spanking in the homes - the homes will be just like the classrooms - no respect, no control and children running the homes instead of parents. Sloan, I also understand where you are coming from - not all children respond to spankings, I have one that we discipline other ways - None of my dc or dgc have been abused in that way, so I don't understand completely. I just don't want the government to be in control of how I raise my children and yes, this will not stop the abusers. They will do it whether there is a law or not. In fact, there is a law now, we cannot abuse our children, people go to jail for that??? Why then this new law??? People have way too much time on their hands and it's not being used to think rationally.

Jackie
01-23-2007, 03:09 PM
Actually, I think the abuse will go up, not down. Parents will have had that method of discipline taken from them. They will have to resort to others that might not be as effective for their kids. More kids will be more out of control, which means more frustrated parents, which causes them to react out of frustration and anger.

Kris, I think I mentioned one time that I was in a store where a preschooler was in the shopping cart, screaming his head off. The guy ahead in me in line complained about the child's behavior. I pretty much went off on this guy. Told him that the child probably wanted to run up and down the aisles, and the mom wasn't allowing it. At least she was trying to control the kid! And of course she couldn't give it the swat it needed in public!

So I guess your husband was suppose to take your precious toddler by the hand and tell it, "Honey, Daddy loves you, but you can't throw candy at the store! That's not nice!" and your little one will understand immediately and stop, right? And they say kids can't understand why they're being swatted, but they CAN understand reasoning? Yeah, right!!!

Ava Rose
01-23-2007, 03:32 PM
""I think it's pretty hard to argue you need to beat a child," Lieber said. "Is it OK to whip a 1-year-old or a 6-month-old or a newborn?""

"Lieber said her proposal would make spanking, hitting and slapping a child under 4 years old a misdemeanor. Adults could face up to a year in jail and a $1,000 fine."
_______________________________________________

I object to the wording used here....spanking is not the same as beating, whipping, slapping or hitting. The wording is telling us the mood and motivation of this law. Soon, we will have no rights as parents to discipline our children. If spanking is abolished, do you think it will stop there? Will we be told how many minutes are acceptable in time-outs? And let's discuss how this law will be implemented. Do you think it will just be those who spank in public? Will children be interviewed at school or doctor's offices without parental consent? I don't think these social workers are going to wait on phone calls and public spankings. I also don't care to have spanking defined. Will they tell me I can't spank with a belt or a paddle? Too many rights are in jeopardy when we have laws for the "welfare of the child." Will homeschooling be abolished because the state can't keep a watchful eye on our kids? I have already told my kids awhile back not to discuss the way we discipline in mixed company. Never know what busy body will think the welfare of my child is better off in the hands of social services.

becky
01-23-2007, 03:39 PM
So no one here thinks 2 or 3 is too young to get spanked?

I have to say that if I knew then what I know now, I'd have never spanked Kevin when he was small. There are too many better ways to handle misbehavior. Spanking is all I saw growing up- with a belt, paddle ball paddle, or whatever was handy. Kids on tv got sent to their rooms! That wasn't real punishment!

Jeannie has to do something totally incredible to get it on the butt. I'd go as far as to say if she had tossed candy like Kris's little one I wouldn't swat her for it.

Of course... Karma will kick in the next time we're in the grocery store and she'll do just that! You all know that, right??

Emma's#1fan
01-23-2007, 03:51 PM
I will spank for complete and willing disobedience for authority or if Ems does something to physically hurt another person. I have not spanked her in ages and I may not ever have to again. I do believe their are other options but not all options are appropriate for each negetive action a child takes. I think the punishment needs to fit the crime. Each child is different and only the parents of each child can determine what is appropriate for their child. I do not think spanking a child under 4 years of age is abuse, I think beating a person of any age is abuse. Children are learning from day one and I do not believe in allowing certain behaviors to pass with simply a time out. I do think spanking a baby is wrong but most people I know do not spank babies.
Patty

MonkeyMamma
01-23-2007, 03:56 PM
Well Becky I just don't believe that the goverment should be able to regulate how we as parents decide to discipline our children. Now I have very very rarely spanked my kids - never really had to. I use the naughty step with dd3 and it works great with her and dd10 has maybe been spanked once or twice. But there are instances when a simple pop on the butt is in order. I'm not one who has ever used a belt or anything other than my hand and even then only a pop on the bottom to get their attention and only when neccessary.
I guess my gripe really has a lot less to do with spanking and a lot more to do with government intrusion into our private lives.

Ava Rose
01-23-2007, 03:59 PM
So no one here thinks 2 or 3 is too young to get spanked?

I have to say that if I knew then what I know now, I'd have never spanked Kevin when he was small. There are too many better ways to handle misbehavior. Spanking is all I saw growing up- with a belt, paddle ball paddle, or whatever was handy. Kids on tv got sent to their rooms! That wasn't real punishment!

Jeannie has to do something totally incredible to get it on the butt. I'd go as far as to say if she had tossed candy like Kris's little one I wouldn't swat her for it.

Of course... Karma will kick in the next time we're in the grocery store and she'll do just that! You all know that, right??

Parenting is often reactionary. If you grew up as you did, Becky, I can see why spanking seems harsh to you. If one grows up where spanking was done correctly...not out of anger...for discipline and correction, than one may not be belt shy. KMIM?

We also all have differing opinions on what is spanking worthy. Of course if it is used for everything it will be come ineffective. I spank for lying or direct disobedience. I know that sounds pretty general...but it is easier for me to take things on a case by case basis. For instance, the first time my son rode his bike in the street after being told not to, I spanked him. That was serious and disobedient regardless of it being the first time or not. Now, for throwing candy in a store...I may say something first and if it continued I would spank for sure. However, I can't say it was unreasonable for Kris's dh to spank the child. I also think spanking should be done without emotion. It is a punishment meant for correction, not for humiliation or in anger. I also don't spank in front of others...I think that is embarressing to the child and uncomfortable for everyone else. Again, not to say that a swat on the butt for misbehaving in a store counts for that.

I see no problem with spanking a child at the age of 2 or 3. In fact, I think that is when it is most effective. I hardly have to spank my ds now at the age of 7. He used to get spanked several times a week at the age of 2 and 3. My ds got spanked a whole lot at 3 but hardly ever after that.

Once I was in store, and I was speaking to a man who mentioned he has a child. I asked him how old his dd was and he said that she was four. I commented that 4 is a nice age. He replied that it was a great age because by four kids have been spanked enough that they know how to act. LOL. That is not an example of anything...just an antidote. Although, I must say I tend to agree.

I also think that it is more abusive to scream and yell and possibly call your kids stupid than spank them. That is also just a thought...not implying that those who don't spank do that.

Jackie
01-23-2007, 04:15 PM
Again, we are talking definition. Becky, you said that you considered a "swat" on the behind OK. But these people feel that ANY physical discipline is the same as "beating" the child. One swat with a wooden spoon they could consider "beating with a rod".

A case in point. I'm sure Ava Rose and G'ma has heard about the parents who were recently convicted for keeping their special needs adopted kids in "cages". These "cages" were a lot like big baby cribs. Beds with bars on them. They had been advised to do this BY THE PSYCHOLOGIST. It had to do with the safety of the children. They somehow had it rigged to where an alarm went off so they knew when the children got up. Again, this had to do with safety of special needs children, and they were doing this on the advice of a "professional". Well, people hear the word "cages", and I think right away of what one would keep a dog in, like a kennel, not a very large crib. So public opinion was very much against these "abusive" parents from the start, just on the term used.

If we were to take a poll asking how many thought it was appropriate to "beat" a 4YO occassionally, how many thought it appropriate to "spank" a 4YO occassionally, and how many thought it was appropriate to give a 4YO a "swat on the rear" occasionally, you'd get three very different responses from the exact same people. It's all a matter of wording.

KrisRV
01-23-2007, 04:26 PM
So no one here thinks 2 or 3 is too young to get spanked?

I have to say that if I knew then what I know now, I'd have never spanked Kevin when he was small. There are too many better ways to handle misbehavior. Spanking is all I saw growing up- with a belt, paddle ball paddle, or whatever was handy. Kids on tv got sent to their rooms! That wasn't real punishment!

Jeannie has to do something totally incredible to get it on the butt. I'd go as far as to say if she had tossed candy like Kris's little one I wouldn't swat her for it.

Of course... Karma will kick in the next time we're in the grocery store and she'll do just that! You all know that, right??




Ok Becky, you said you wouldn't have swat her if she would of done what my dd did? well I want to make it clear it wasn't a swat it was a pad on the bottom and remember she had diapers on. What would you have done? Picked her and took her out of the store and talked to her. KIND of late for a little one. Dr. Spock always said if you don't bite the problem in the butt right there on the spot they wouldn't remember what they did by the time you take them to the car. I feel we did the right thing. Social worker or no social worker at my door. If we had to do it all over again I would still back my dh up. I think it's bad when a Child in a store is having a fit and the parents do nothing about it. Shows bad parenting in my book.

And for the books my dd has never and I mean never had her bottom pad again. She learned from it. So, it must of worked.

becky
01-23-2007, 04:33 PM
They looked like cages, Jackie!! I saw that story on the news. I wondered if the Psycho got his degree from a Cracker Jack box!

Ohio Mom
01-23-2007, 04:34 PM
Yes, Jackie, I agree. I did hear about the people who put their special needs children in "cages". I also thought it was safer for everyone involved. As I followed the case, it seemed like the children had some real issues. We built a place for our dgd - it is a 1/4 wall around an area 12 X 12. I can see her, but she can't get out. I can lift her over the side. When people see this they say, "Oh I see you built a cage for Gianna" I immediately say NO it is a play area. I can just see this getting around that I keep Gianna in a cage. It's hard raising children in this time. When I was being raised, it was so different. My parents did not abuse me, but we did get spanked if we needed it - in public or not. People didn't hesistate to spank in public. I never was spanked after I turned 4 - I didn't need it. I learned at an early age. Of course that was back in the 50's.

becky
01-23-2007, 04:42 PM
Kris, my 'swat' and your 'pad' sound like the same thing. A swat is barely forceful, but on a 2 or 3 yr old it would do the trick. My 'swat' would make an older child have to stifle laughter!

No, I still don't think I'd do that, though. I'm not putting your husband down, either- please get that. That's not what I'm saying at all. If it had been me, her tossing the candy was turmoil enough. I'd have laid her out to be sure and tried to get her to help clean it up. If that didn't work I'd have handled it outside, not in front of a cast of thousands.

Jeanne gets a mouthy streak when she's tired and she'll shriek at the top of her lungs. When that happens I hasten to get us out of the environment and handle it outside. By that time she has created enough of a circus, so why add to it ?

Emma's#1fan
01-23-2007, 05:33 PM
I am not completely against government, it has a place but not in the home. They cross the line when they try to tell parents what they can and can't do with their children, in regards to raising them. Again, if a parent is abusive, it is not going to stop them from hurting their child. Abuse has been against the law before this possible law ever came up and it still will be if it fails. They are completely missing the point and trying to attack it from the wrong side of the fence.
Patty

timkelmom
01-23-2007, 07:58 PM
I find it sad that they would punish parents for up to 1 year in prison and a fine of $1,000 for spanking when a female teacher from Florida has a sexual relationship with a 14 year old middle school student and gets only house arrest.

What does this say about the state of things in this country? Something is seriously messed up.

KrisRV
01-24-2007, 07:39 AM
I agree with timkelmom.
I find it sad that they would punish parents for up to 1 year in prison and a fine of $1,000 for spanking when a female teacher from Florida has a sexual relationship with a 14 year old middle school student and gets only house arrest.

What does this say about the state of things in this country? Something is seriously messed up.

timkelmom
01-24-2007, 07:56 AM
Here's another thought. While I strongly oppose this law and any other like it, I find it interetesting that people feel so passionately about the government interfering with the discipline of their children, but they are perfectly fine with letting the government raise their children, feed their children, educate their children, or telling them what rights they have about their own bodies.

I don't mean anyone specifically on here, just people in general.

bugsmommy
01-24-2007, 03:11 PM
If social services (or any other idiotic government agency) would have the nerve to set foot on MY property and tell ME what to do with MY child---I can promise you the stink I would raise would be on every news station in the world. When are they gonna let people alone and worry about the real problems in this world??? I betcha you NEVER see social services or any other dumb agency checking on soldiers' (the ones serving in Irag and overseas) families to see if they could do anything to HELP the parents that are raising the kids by themselves......They really need to get a life and do something useful for a change!!!:confused:

P.H.
01-25-2007, 12:52 AM
This thread is so "right on!" The issue is about more than spanking: it's about who has the privilege of raising our children.

Emma's#1fan
01-25-2007, 08:59 AM
I agree.
Patty

Ava Rose
01-25-2007, 09:21 AM
Well, I guess all of this is a part of a grand scheme to indoctrinate our children to human secularism.

Emma's#1fan
01-25-2007, 09:26 AM
They are trying to squeeze it in however they can.
Patty

jenlynn4673
01-25-2007, 09:43 AM
Honestly it scares me! There is a distinct difference between a spank (swat, pad, etc...) and beating. I was abused as a child. I walked around with one of my moms DH's names black and blued on my backside. From my legs on up to my back. That to me is ABUSE.
A spanking is not abuse.
I have spanked. Some days they still do recieve a spank. They are forwarned and will typically adjust their behavior before it gets to that point now.

It scares me because there are people out there who beat the heck out of kids and nothing happens to them while big brother and every body else in the world is concerned that you spanked your child and is ready to call DCFS on you if you even hint that you might spank your child.

Ava Rose
01-25-2007, 02:11 PM
It scares me because there are people out there who beat the heck out of kids and nothing happens to them while big brother and every body else in the world is concerned that you spanked your child and is ready to call DCFS on you if you even hint that you might spank your child.

Amen!

A friend of mine knew for a fact that a little foster boy, about 5, that lived with an in-law was being terribly abused. She called Children's Services. They came out and talked for about an hour and then left. NOthing came of it. Sadly, the state had been called about this several times by different people---a few who actually lived in the same house. Nothing was ever done. The kid no longer lives there but that isn't because the state intervened.

Emma's#1fan
01-26-2007, 01:17 PM
I am interested to see how Sally Lieber pieces this together. She needs to define spanking and find a way to enforce it.

Sally Lieber said, "I think it's pretty hard to argue you need to beat a child. Is it OK to whip a 1-year-old or a 6-month-old or a newborn?"

She is trying to label a spank as a beating. In order to do this she has to redefine a beating as well if she plans on saying that a swat on the tushy is a beating. Those who have been beat clearly know what a beating is. This lady is going to have her work cut out.
Patty

Jackie
01-26-2007, 01:22 PM
Patty, I hope you're right, but I don't think you are. There's an "anti-spaking" movement in this country, and I believe it is gaining momentum. This is already law in other countries, and I think it's only a matter of time before it becomes law here, too.

sixcloar
01-26-2007, 01:32 PM
Unfortunately, I think you're right Jackie. Spanking is no longer considered a reasonable punishment for a huge population of people.

When I was in college, my Exceptional Children class professor was constantly lecturing on how horrible spanking is. I'm sure that view is taught even more now.

There are certainly other ways to discipline. At our house the rule is to use what works. If taking away priviledges works, we do that. But sometimes a spanking is needed.

Emma's#1fan
01-26-2007, 02:21 PM
I still think it going to be interesting to see how it pans out. They have to enforce it. Their are a lot of laws that go by the wayside because they can't be enforced or minimally enforced. There are cases of spankings that have been labeled as abuse but by the time law enforcement can intervene or CPS, charges or the investigation is dropped because in order to charge a person, there has to be evidence. Usually they can't find evidence for a spanking. They have to prove damages have accured. If they can find damage, then maybe the parents should be charged because it would be true abuse, in my opinion.
In the city over, a lady was on Oprah or Montel, a few years back. The show was about spanking. A ladies 14 year old son kept coming home late so she paddles his tush with a paddle. The school told the children to call 911 if the parents spank them. Well, the boy did. They came out and arrested the mom. When CPS finally arrived to the department, they took the boy to the hospital and gave the boy a strip search, they checked genitals and all :eek: , to make sure the boy wasn't sexually abused. The doctor found no abuse and any redness was diminished by the time this came about. So, basically there was no evidence. Charges where dropped and the mom was released. When asked if she would ever spank her son again by the show host, she said, "You bet! If he's going to live in my house it will be by my rules."
So even if a law passes, it has to be enforced and the situation above doesn't happen often, not that is alright. Most officers, not all, regardless of what the news says, have level heads.
If an officer responds to a call of abuse, regardless of age of the person being abused, it is the officers choice to arrest or not arrest according to the evidence. Charges do not have to be pressed by the victim, it is the officers call. If a person presses charges without evidence, the burden of proof rests on their shoulders. The officers I have known through school, and granted it isn't all of them, spank there own children. There are a few high and mighty officers, like this Leslie lady who is trying to pass this law, that try to pull what the officer did with the lady in the city over. Usually it is the younger, fresh out of the academy officers. The officers who have been on the streets for years fighting crime, drugs, abuse, murders come to a point where they learn to pick and choose their battles. An officer can be reprimanded for waisting the cities time and money.

The way I view it is:
I think this law would stink if it passes, I do not believe the government has any right to pass the gates of my dwelling, but if it passes, they still have to prove a crime was commited. Many Californians know just how often true criminals are released because of the way the California Judicial System works. It is warped.
All we can do is pray, raise our children to know that a spanking is a blessing when done correctly and write our government as to how we feel about it.
I still think that there is a lot to carrying this out, even if it passes. When I think about it, there are thousands of truly abused children still in the home because California requires evidence. That is what stinks.
Patty

Jackie
01-26-2007, 04:51 PM
Here's the thing, though. The mother admitted that she DID spank the boy, and would do so again. And yes, I agree with what she did and don't consider it at all abusive. BUT if this law was passed and 911 was called, it doesn't matter if any "damage" was done or not. If they interview the kid and the kid says "Mom hits me sometimes", the parent could be fined, jailed, loose the kids, etc. Whether there was physical evidence or not.

Plus we won't mention kids that are angry with their parents and make things up, just because they would be "happier" living with at their friend's house (because their parents don't give a hoot about disciplining kids and doesn't have any rules, etc.), or because her boyfriend's mom is "cool" and will let her move in, etc.

Deena
01-26-2007, 05:38 PM
That's what's scary about this to me---the kids that know good and well an adult has no way to discipline!

Kids already are getting out of control, if you keep taking away disipline measures, then how will they learn right from wrong, if adults have no rights?!

Emma's#1fan
01-26-2007, 11:07 PM
The boy calling 911 on his mom was a shameful act but I do not think it is the norm, not yet anyways. I do not think to many children under 4 years of age are going to call 911, although anything is possible now a days. I have seen and heard of some stranger things and yes, the older children can call for the younger ones and many other things can come of it. We live in scary times but God is still bigger then these problems we have here on earth.

It will be ashame if it passes because as I said in another post, this lady is trying to stop abuse from the wrong side of the fence but the Republicans who are against it do give me hope. I do not ever want to give up on that. That is something nobody can take away.:D
If I give up hope, regardless of the law passing or not passing, then they have won. I try not to give people that much authority over my life.

I root for the mom who had the courage to stand up for what was right. That was a gutsy lady.:D
I liked her!
She wasn't going to allow the government to dictate how she was going to raise her child, law or no law. I only pray that all parents have the same gumption to stand up for what is right if the time ever comes.
It sure taught her son a lesson. He said he would never call 911 again. He realized that he not only hurt his mom, he embarrassed the pants of himself, literally.:lol:
Patty

sloan127
01-26-2007, 11:18 PM
I had a foster daughter once who was taken into care at the age of 8 because she told the guidance counselor at school that her father had raped her. Our pastor and his wife were foster parents and they had a little girl whose step father had molested her. I think she was 9. Anyway the two girls knew each other and were friends. On the day we went to court the lawyer came to talk to our foster daughter before the case was called and the next thing I know I am being told I can go home. And they said the little girl would be going home with her parents. She told the lawyer that she and the other little girl had been talking and thought they could go live together if they told the same story. The other little girl had been molested but ours lied. Her father had been arrested and gone through all that nonsense because the girls lied to the school counselor. I have heard people say kids can't make up some of the abuse stories but if they have heard it from a friend they know what to say and a persons reputation can be ruined because of it. I have always wondered if that poor father was ever able to get over what his daughter did to him. I was thinking about kids calling social services over spankings and just remembered those little girls.

Emma's#1fan
01-26-2007, 11:33 PM
I was thinking about kids calling social services over spankings and just remembered those little girls.

The older children who are old enough to understand just might,simply because they are already doing it now without a law. Sadly, it will be nothing new.
Patty

Jackie
01-27-2007, 07:26 AM
Our neighbor's daughter threatened to call children's services on her dad. And this was NOT an abusive father. The middle child got mouthy, and Dad smacked her. She was a young teen at the time, old enough to know better. The older high school girl jumped in and said he couldn't do that, and she'd call. Dad told her to go ahead and call, but to think VERY CAREFULLY about what the consequences could be, that it could even split them all up....She didn't call, but the older daughter REALLY THOUGHT at the time that calling would be the "right" thing to do because of the crap the counselors, etc. were telling them at school.

timkelmom
01-27-2007, 08:10 AM
The problem here is this. Kids are taught in government school that hitting of any kind is abuse and they are given the numbers and contact information for social services by their school teachers. They are encourage to call. They are taught how to call and what to say as young as 6.

Also, the kids think if they call that someone will just come out and tell their parents not to do it anymore. They don't realize what can actually happen. Their parents will be arrested, they will often be embarrassed like the boy in the previous story.

The main thing they don't realize is that they will not be going to a friends house, or the cooler parent's house. They can be sent to some pretty awful places.

Kid's should know the difference between abuse and discipline, and should ask for help only when truly necessary.

Jackie
01-27-2007, 01:07 PM
Children also need to understand the difference between knowing when they actually did wrong and must take the consequences of their actions, that sometimes parents make mistakes and they might be punished when they were innocent, and parents that are abusive and out of control.

becky
01-27-2007, 07:39 PM
I was accused and investigated three times for abusing Kevin, when he was in elementary school. The first two times were the principal's doing. With the third time there was a new principal that knew Kevin had learned how to play the game. By that third time, I'd have paid social services to strip seach Kevin's behind, just to teach him a lesson. When a child like that makes their bed they need to sleep in it, I say.

JenniferErix
01-28-2007, 10:12 PM
Again, we are talking definition. If we were to take a poll asking how many thought it was appropriate to "beat" a 4YO occasionally, how many thought it appropriate to "spank" a 4YO occasionally, and how many thought it was appropriate to give a 4YO a "swat on the rear" occasionally, you'd get three very different responses from the exact same people. It's all a matter of wording.

You are a genius!

Just try to remember that "Government" does not exist. It does not breathe or think about you. Government is not alive, it is not seeking to get you, it is not after your information and it does not care to know more about you, or to control you..... it does not exist. However...... It is simply a manifest of those who are active in it.

Therefore, All government is an accumulation of thousands of "Special Interest Groups". You are simply seeing and hearing about these special interest groups work on the news because THEY are active. And powerful, because many of us get suckered into supporting them because they play on "Semantics" to get people on their side. ("Well, of course I am NOT for BEATING a child! Here, let me donate something to help this cause!")

THEY WILL make this country what they want it to be, unless YOU decide otherwise....

JenPooh
01-30-2007, 01:48 PM
I have not had the time to read all the responses but I have been keeping up with the ridiculous proposal on other sites I belong to. I'm not sure if anyone mentioned it (sorry if I'm repeating a fact here), but did anyone know that the woman who proposed this law does NOT even have children of her own?!?! Figures.

Tanner's first swat on the butt was at age 2, and you can rest asure he knew what it was for and he most definitely learned from it. In my honest and humble opinion, a child under the age of 4 most certainly does know a lot of right from wrong and spanking can be effective when used appropriately. Under age 2 (well...I'd say more like under 18 months) I could side with, but ALL children under 4?! No way. BUT, JMO. :) ;) I think this whole proposed ban is truly dumb. They should be concentrating on punishing the parents who beat their kids instead and making our current system harsher for people who truly deserve it!

jenlynn4673
01-31-2007, 03:00 PM
but did anyone know that the woman who proposed this law does NOT even have children of her own?!?! Figures.


oh, gee - that figures!

JenPooh
01-31-2007, 03:04 PM
oh, gee - that figures!She has two cats though.:roll: Maybe that's where she gets the ideas for her proposals. You know, children are the same as cats!:roll: Kidding!;)

Ava Rose
01-31-2007, 03:39 PM
She has two cats though.:roll: Maybe that's where she gets the ideas for her proposals. You know, children are the same as cats!:roll: Kidding!;)

If only life were that easy! lol. I sometimes wish my kids were like my dog. lol. He never cries, whines, asks for anything, never bothers me if I am hormonal, he even keeps the mice away. Seriously....he is quite a mouser for a dog.

Dichotomy
01-31-2007, 03:51 PM
Okay first off I'm not a fan of spanking. Never was when I was on the receiving end of it (which was quite a bit) and haven't been since Squid was born. Squid was pretty easy to raise and still is. I can count the number of times I've had to spank him on one hand in 13 years. Two of mine though have unfortunately pushed the envelope to the point of where they get a spanking. To get there they have to push me a LONG way past the three strike rule which is First time I'm going to sit down and talk to you about why I don't want you to do this and what the repurcussions of continuing this behavior can and will be, Second time you're reminded more sternly, Third time will be a punishment that you do not like (I can be REAL creative on this one EG: Take a trash bag out in the front yard and pick up every stick you find. This is a real time wast because I have 21 oak trees), fourth and so on you get grounded, tv taken away, and so on. So you have to push me a LOOOONG way for me to get physical with you. That said when one of mine needs a swat or five then thats what they have to get and it's not up to anybody to tell me differently.

Jackie
01-31-2007, 03:58 PM
Exactly the point, Dichotomy! It's quite alright to use all those other things you mentioned, but when you, as their dad, feels a spanking is needed, shouldn't be anyone to tell you differently!

Dichotomy
01-31-2007, 04:05 PM
Thank you .. one thing I forgot to mention is that She Devil and I always consult prior to that point to ensure that we've tried everything we can think of to make our point regardless of where we are. If I'm at work and she feels it's needed they know that I know what's up at home and that not only are they getting spanked they are going to have to endure the lecture when I get home :lol: most times I think they'd rather push my buttons than hers because they only have to deal with it once ;)

Ava Rose
02-01-2007, 09:16 AM
Dichotomy...nothing better than creative punishment! It works so well. On an older child I will have to say it is as effective as a spanking. I know I was never a big fan of spanking myself... I just see that it can be necessary for some kids. I will say I have spanked all my kids at some point. In fact, last week I spanked my son. That was the first time in a year! So, when dad got home...yep...he got a lecture. Now, that was the first time I spanked him. My dh just spanked the kid twice the week before. Oh and spanking never comes without a lecture....poor kids. My dh even sometimes implements creative punishments and lectures. LOL. Thankfully, all three never come together. lol. My ds goes through these little times where he gets really disobedient and just doesn't listen...more like he is on channel 13 while we all are on channel 12, kwim? He never has an attitude and would die before talking back. However, every now and then he needs a reminder. Then we can go about a year before spanking him again. lol. My dd never gets spanked anymore. My little dd....well.....her time is just arriving....I can see it in her personality already.....HELP! lol.

Frugalcountrymom
02-13-2007, 10:50 AM
I am not for any law telling parents how to raise there children. I agree

This is an interesting topic I liked reading all the replys.
I am a firm believer in spanking especially when they are younger. I believe in time out first but if that dont work then the threat of a spanking comes next which needs to be followed out especially in public which is more likely where they will act up at.

I have dropped everything, gotten out of line to take my kids to the bathroom to disapline them. This took maybe two times to know that I mean business and I have never had a problem after that. "Do we need to go to the bathroom to take care of this problem?" amazing how after maybe one or two times that works.

I am also a firm believer that every family has the right to disapline how they see fit. However if your kids out of control still with your method you got to admit its not working eh.

Ever see the show the Nanny I think its called? She dosent spank and she is very strict. I like her methods so yes I can see it being done without spanking.

Sam

JenPooh
02-13-2007, 10:54 AM
I agree

This is an interesting topic I liked reading all the replys.
I am a firm believer in spanking especially when they are younger. I believe in time out first but if that dont work then the threat of a spanking comes next which needs to be followed out especially in public which is more likely where they will act up at.

I have dropped everything, gotten out of line to take my kids to the bathroom to disapline them. This took maybe two times to know that I mean business and I have never had a problem after that. "Do we need to go to the bathroom to take care of this problem?" amazing how after maybe one or two times that works.

I am also a firm believer that every family has the right to disapline how they see fit. However if your kids out of control still with your method you got to admit its not working eh.

Ever see the show the Nanny I think its called? She dosent spank and she is very strict. I like her methods so yes I can see it being done without spanking.

SamI totally agree! I think you're talking about Supernanny. She's a hoot!

KrisRV
02-13-2007, 11:55 AM
love supernanny here. She is hoot. We need more supernanny is America maybe things would be alot different. I don't know maybe not.

sloan127
02-13-2007, 01:17 PM
Yeah Kris, Only we need more superMoms and Dads, or just a little more courage to do what we know is the right thing. I used to give in just to not cause a scene. Not anymore. My kids know I will not put up with a disrespectful attitude and I don't care who is watching or where we are. I won't let them get away with bad behavior. I love my kids and want them to be great adults not spoiled, it's all about me, people! You all help me stick to my guns when I read your posts here. I know I am not alone. Beth

MonkeyMamma
02-13-2007, 05:39 PM
I got the naughty step idea from supper nanny and it works wonders on dd4. Not practical for dd10 but she hardly ever does anything that warrants punishment anyway.

Frugalcountrymom
02-13-2007, 09:58 PM
So what is the naughty step?

MonkeyMamma
02-14-2007, 01:53 PM
Well suppet nanny used either a step stool or just a mat on the floor. When the child acts out (throwing fits things of that nature) she gave them one warning and then if they do it again they go on the naughty step for one minute per year of age. My dd is 4 so she has to sit on the step for 4 mins. The key is to get down on their level, look them in the eye and make them look you in the eye, tell them exactly what they did wrong and what you expect. When their time is up the must appologize for what they did.

We have a step stool for ours in the front room of the house. It works soooooo well for dd4. We usually don't even have to put her on it because now the warning works. It took some time of being consistant before it became really effective. She doesn't recomend it for older kids though. What amazes me is that the parents on the show never think it will work for their kid but it always does.