View Full Version : Ninth Circuit Slams Student’s Religious Expression

04-25-2006, 04:33 PM
Got this in my email today...


Ninth Circuit Slams Student’s Religious Expression

San Francisco, CA—Religious liberty advocates are expressing alarm over a decision by the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals which could drastically limit the rights of students to express their religious beliefs.

Late last week, the Ninth Circuit upheld a lower court’s ruling which rejected the free speech claims of a student who was removed from his class, threatened with suspension and urged not to bring his faith to school after he wore a t-shirt—in response to the pro-homosexual Day of Silence—which called homosexuality “shameful” and cited a Bible verse. The decision, Harper v. Poway School District, was written by the Ninth Circuit’s Judge Reinhardt, who has previously gained notoriety for rulings favoring abortion, homosexual rights and assisted suicide, while rejecting parents’ rights to protect their children from sex surveys in school.

The 54-page Harper decision relies on controversial studies which assert homosexual students are more likely to endure bias and therefore need special protection from opposing views. The court concluded: “[I]t is well established that attacks on students on the basis of their sexual orientation are harmful not only to the students’ health and welfare, but also to their educational performance and their ultimate potential for success in life. Those who administer our public educational institutions need not tolerate verbal assaults that may destroy the self-esteem of our most vulnerable teenagers and interfere with their educational development.”

Other key aspects of the case, including state-based rights and a sweeping school policy which bans a broad range of student speech, have yet to be decided. Because of the far-reaching implications of the issues at stake, the case could eventually reach a larger panel of Ninth Circuit judges or even the U.S. Supreme Court.

Brad Dacus, president of Pacific Justice Institute, commented, “This is, without exaggeration, one of the worst student free speech decisions the Ninth Circuit has ever issued—and that’s saying a lot. We are hopeful this decision will eventually be reversed and remembered as an embarrassing moment of hypocrisy for those who advocate tolerance and diversity. Although this was not a PJI case, we will continue to vigorously defend students’ rights. With the Day of Silence taking place this week, we urge students who encounter censorship to contact us immediately.”

Please visit our website,www.pacificjustice.org (http://www.pacificjustice.org/) , to respond to our poll question: Should schools be allowed to silence students who oppose homosexuality?
______________________________ __________________________________________________ __________
The Pacific Justice Institute is a non-profit 501(c)(3) legal defense organization specializing in
the defense of religious freedom, parental rights, and other civil liberties.
P.O. Box 276600
Sacramento, CA 95827-6600
Phone: (916) 857-6900
Fax (916) 857-6902
www.pacificjustice.org (http://www.pacificjustice.org/)

04-29-2006, 11:40 PM
I am so right there with you.
This is nuts.
But not surprising.

The Ninth Circuit has ALWAYS been very activist libral in their "Decision". Anyone remember the whole issue over prayer in school and the litle gir;'s daddy, who took it t court? She did not even live with her daddy, but it was just too juicy for the ninth circuit court to pass up.

I hear their name and roll my eyes.

04-30-2006, 08:01 AM
Ava Rose, with all due respect, I do find your comments offensive. I am very much against homosexuality. I believe it's a choice; one that goes very strongly against God's will and will destroy our civilization. But these people are SINNERS, just like you and I are. We can condemn their actions, but they are still redeemable with God's love.

04-30-2006, 11:00 AM
Jackie, that was her point.

She is not allowed to offend anyone, but the most offensive people can?
You made her point for her.
Get it?

Why can one group declare their freedom of speech, however even in this forum, (Much less in the strets) we are not allowed to declare our freedom of speech? (Without "Offending" someone, that is)

i completely understood, regardless how I feel about the Gay/lesbian issue. And that is surprizing as I have been on record knocking someone who called them freaks.

But that is not the point. The point was (Short of yelling fire in a crowded theatre, or giving away government secrets) we should have the same fredoms as the so-called freaks. But we do not.

I hate the fact that I cannot be proud of MY race. I hate the fact that I cannot hold a parade for MY heritage without being seen as a racist! THAT is NOT fair, and everyonne knows it.

From what I gather, Ava Rose's comment was simply an expression of this frustration of having to put up and be tollerent of everyone else. Yet at the same time, not being allowed to express HER oppinions. (That is without "Offending" someone.)

I am tired of being offensive, simply by the act of being white, christian and conservative. I do not have to move a muscle to be offensive. This is rediculous.


04-30-2006, 02:14 PM
No, I disagree. I don't have a problem with her saying that their behavior is "wrong" or "sinful", etc. I believe we need to speak the truth. I applaud the young man for standing up for truth in his school. But we still need to speak it IN LOVE. And I feel her words were NOT spoken in love.

She has the right to say whatever she wishes. I am expressing to y'all my feelings about the post, not "complaining" to Amanda about it to have it pulled or anything. That's because I've come to respect her opinion, even when I disagree with it. If someone who had never before posted had said the same thing, I might have complained.

04-30-2006, 02:46 PM
I was actually surprised by what Ava said. I didn't even notice who posted it until after I read the comment. It's not vocabulary I'd expect to hear from someone so obviously Christian.

Back to the topic-

at Kevin's high school you couldn't wear shirts with slogans. You could wear an 'insignia'- for lack of a better term- like Izod or something like that. Something that showed a brand, but didn't make commentary. Kids violating this policy were made to put on their jackets or call home to get another top brought in. If there was something in lost and found that fit they were given that.
Kevin once told me a girl was given an art smock to cover her t-shirt. This went for all kids, not just a chosen few.

Ava Rose
04-30-2006, 09:43 PM
Jennifer, thank you for understanding that there was frustration behind the post. I was very frustrated. I am frustrated with the world attacking Christ's deity and everyone calling that freedom, while I cannot make a comment without offending. However.....as a Christian a better countenance is expected. If I do not control my tongue than it is I who offend Christ and that I cannot tolerate. Thank you for seeing my point through my harsh and uncalled for post.

Jackie, although I was frustrated I will have to say that you are completely right. Actually, I posted while being frustrated about something completely different and then I read the thread and got more frustrated. I went back and read my post and realized just how awful it sounds and I do feel bad about it. I must admit I have a problem controling my mouth when I get frustrated...I always have. It is my problem and no one should have to be subjected to it. I apologize to everyone who read it. Had I taken the time to read it I would have deleted it. There was no need to be so harsh. I will hang my flesh at the door the next time I enter the forum. I do apologize.

Ava Rose
04-30-2006, 09:55 PM
I was actually surprised by what Ava said. I didn't even notice who posted it until after I read the comment. It's not vocabulary I'd expect to hear from someone so obviously Christian.

I am so sorry. I feel terrible that I can harm my testimony for Christ in that way. I am the one who has offended Christ. I feel just terrible. I read this thread at a time when I was pretty stressed and I let my flesh get the best of me.

05-01-2006, 12:43 AM
I know I have put my foot in my mouth plenty of timez!
Yes, I admit it!

(Everyone stop laughing!)
(Sticks tounge out)

crazy jen

05-01-2006, 06:04 AM
I'VE NEVER DONE THAT!!! (as lightning comes down from Heaven to strike me) Seriously, we all have our frustrations, and all sometimes speak out like that from time to time. As Becky said, such comments are very out of character for you. We know for the Godly woman you are, and appreciate your apology.

05-01-2006, 02:08 PM
I hate the fact that I cannot be proud of MY race. I hate the fact that I cannot hold a parade for MY heritage without being seen as a racist! THAT is NOT fair, and everyonne knows it.


Ava, we all put our foot in our mouths sometimes, but this is why I love this forum so much. Everytime something like that happens, everyone is so forgiving and we all go back to the way things were.:love: See how much more love comes from a Christ centered environment? Why do some people in this world not get that!?!?

Ava Rose
05-01-2006, 05:20 PM
Thank you ladies for being so forgiving. I got the post deleted so anyone lurking won't associate this forum with that post. I sincerly appreciate your forgiveness. I couldn't stop thinking about what a jerk I was.

05-01-2006, 06:46 PM
If this forum was not a forgiving forum, they would have kicked MY butt out weeks ago!

05-01-2006, 06:55 PM
If this forum was not a forgiving forum, they would have kicked MY butt out weeks ago!

You wouldn't have been allowed in the door!!! (Just teasing, Jen! :love:)

05-01-2006, 07:59 PM
I think we should also lighten up on the 'white power' stuff, too, for exactly the reason Ava deleted her post. People of that mindset looking for trouble could get sent here, and I don't know about anyone else, but I hope that doesn't happen.

05-01-2006, 10:55 PM
If you are refering to me...

I never said anything about "WHITE POWER".
For you to take it to THAT extreame is dumb and inflamatory.
And it makes my point much more clear.

My exact words were:
"I hate the fact that I cannot be proud of MY race. I hate the fact that I cannot hold a parade for MY heritage without being seen as a racist! THAT is NOT fair, and everyonne knows it."

Where in that do you read: "WHITE POWER"?
Because I said, "My Race"?

You turned my words around.
And I find that completely unfair for you to put me in league with bigots and evil people.

White power is an inflamitory phrase that you introduced into this dialouge.


Ava Rose
05-01-2006, 11:39 PM
Race is a difficult issue. There are so many ways to get offended. Since there are more races than homosexuals, our schools should concentrate more on the acceptance of ALL races. We should never feel as if one race is the undoing of another. We should all be proud of our race and not feel ashamed. That applies to all races. It is odd that miniornities are encouraged to be proud while the majority is encouraged to keep a low profile. I think that too adds to resentment and prejudice. Being a white woman married to a black man and having bi-racial children....how to handle race issues is an important subject. However, it is an important subject regardless. My black mil, wants her grandchildren to be proud of being half black AND half white.

Race, as said, is a touchy subject. Too often, the mention of racial pride hits raw nerves. We are afraid of appearing racist. People in the majority feel they cannot be proud because it may insult other races. However, that is not the concern of those in the minority. In fact, racial pride for minorities is the backlash of racism. So, in a sense it is a way to recover from past scars and show that oppression will not be tolerated any longer. It is a frontal assult on past sins of those who hated due only to skin color. Due to that it seems odd or the majority to then take on a sense of pride. We feel like we are saying we are proud that we are NOT a minority, instead of just being proud of who we are.

I do recall a thread in not the so distant past that dealt with this issue. I believe it dealt with the frustration of Mexican Americans being proud to be Mexican. It was ok to be proud to be Mexican but you are a bigot if you just wanted to be proud to be an American. I don't think "White Power" ever came up then. I don't think it is coming up now. I honestly think there is a breakdown in effectively communicating about race without the risk of offending. We are afraid to appear as bigots. However, a bigot exclaims that he or she hates another based on race, creed or religion. Being proud of who you are does not consititue a bigot.

The post I deleted was inflammatory. It was clear in it's intent to insult and offend. It was a sick testimony of how twisted you can think when you let frustration get the best of you. That is not what defines this forum. However, had I said I was proud to be heterosexual, I wouldn't see anything wrong with that.

We walk fine lines when we speak of race, sexual orientation, and religion. I am currently reading a book, called Jesus Among Other Gods, by Ravi Zacharias. I want to quote you something in his book--I think it defines our balancing act---

---The difficulty has really not been in knowing what to say, but in knowing what not to say. We are living in a time when sensitivities are at the surface, often vented with cutting words. Philosophically, you can believe anything, as long as you do not claim it to be true. Morally, you can practice anything, so long as you do not claim that it is a "better" way. Religiously, you can hold to anything, so long as you do not bring Jesus Christ into it. If a spiritual idea is eastern, it is granted critical immunity; if western, it is throughlycriticized. Thus, a journalist can walk into a church and mock its carryings on, but he or she dare not do the sam eif the ceremony is from the eastern fold. Such is the mood at the end of the twentieth century.

A mood can be a dangerous state of mind, because it can crush reasn under the weight of feeling. But that is what I believe postmoderism best represents--a mood.--Ravi Zacharias

He goes on to express how he did not want to offend the Buddists, or Hindus, yet he would inevitably do so with his Chrisitan view that Jesus is the only true way. He walks a tightrope we all find ourselves on. Some of us fall, as I did. Thankfully, I fell into the net of forgiveness this forum provides. However, I think I am the only one who has crossed the line.

Anyway, this discussion, although not originally intended by the poster of the thread, reminded me of the struggle the author of the book I am reading faced.

05-02-2006, 08:13 AM
Jen, what I meant was if someone is out there looking for likeminded people they might get sent here because your statement might get included with any results they bring up. It's a possibility.

I meant no harm with what I said, and you're right that the term I used can also get them sent here. However, I meant no ill will and if you're sensing that you'll just have to let it go because it's just not how I meant it.

05-02-2006, 11:39 AM
Alrighty, girls!
(Clapping Hands together to get attention, not applause...)

Everyone, off the playground for ten minutes!
Go to the washroom and wash your hands and faces!
Off now!
Everyone is too hot.

Then, we can all come back and eat Rocky Road Ice Cream, which we ALL know is the absolute best ice cream in the world!

Am I right?
(Cheesy Grin!)

05-02-2006, 01:01 PM
NO!!!! I DON'T LIKE NUTS!!! (See me jumping up and down and turning red) I WANT STRAWBERRY!!!!!! :lol:

05-02-2006, 01:44 PM
Caramel Cone from Haagen-Dazs for me!!! YUMMY!

Ava Rose
05-02-2006, 03:19 PM
I want cookie dough and I am not going to wash my hands until I get it!!!!!!

05-02-2006, 03:22 PM
Ok ladies, here it is . . .

My PHD Thesis on "Why Chocolate is like Harvard".

You cheapen chocolate when you add anything to it, (Coconut, nuts, berries, marshmallows, etc...)

However, the "Thing" you add, is "Bettered" for being in the chocolate.

The end!


Ava Rose
05-02-2006, 10:31 PM
[However, the "Thing" you add, is "Bettered" for being in the chocolate.

I love it! A whole dimension of life would be missing if someone didn't come up with "bettering" peanut butter with chocolate.

05-03-2006, 02:29 AM

05-03-2006, 06:09 AM
In college we would put a big spoonful of PB in the bottom of the bowl, and vanilla ice cream, and top it off with chocolate sauce. UMMMMM!!!!!

05-03-2006, 12:28 PM
Actually the ONLY way to not pervert Chocolate Ice Cream, is to make the Ice Cream Happy. What does Chocolate Ice Cream like????
Having HOT Mc DOnalds French Fries Dipped Into It!
(Chocolate Shakes are PERFECT for this!!!)

You have my permission, to drool!


Ava Rose
05-03-2006, 01:10 PM
Having HOT Mc DOnalds French Fries Dipped Into It!
(Chocolate Shakes are PERFECT for this!!!)


Oh my Jen, some of my friends would make fun of me for that! lol. My dh and kids still think I am wierd. Well, I am....but not for that! Wish you were in Ohio, I would go to McD's with ya and have a blast!

05-03-2006, 01:34 PM
You know, Ava, I've had my doubts about you and Jen from the beginning. Now all doubt is GONE. You two are....well, I guess I'll just say "different".......:)

05-03-2006, 01:55 PM
I have many friends who dip their MD fries in their shakes. I thought it was a WI thing...guess not! The weirdness has spread throughout the whole country...LOL!!!

05-03-2006, 01:58 PM
Oh my Jen, some of my friends would make fun of me for that! lol. My dh and kids still think I am wierd. Well, I am....but not for that! Wish you were in Ohio, I would go to McD's with ya and have a blast!]

Who was it in the 70's who sang, "You and Me against the World.. Anne Murray?"

05-03-2006, 02:03 PM
You know, Ava, I've had my doubts about you and Jen from the beginning. Now all doubt is GONE. You two are....well, I guess I'll just say "different".......:)

My true colors are showing!
Need to call the tailor.


Man o Man!
I descovered Ice Cream and French Fries at Astroworld, in 1984. (Astroworld, was Houston's Six Flags Amusement Park)
One Day a friend had a ton of fries poured out onto a tray at a retaurant, I dropped my Waffel Cone into the frys... they were AWESOME!

Yea, baby!

It is Hot - COld
Sweet - Salty
Soft - Hard
All those flavors and textures and temperatures batteling it out in your mouth. But the #1 rule of French Fries and Ice Cream is, dip each fry individually. You never want to dip a fry too soon, it would go limp!

No you know more than you would ever need to know about living in Houston! hahaha!

05-03-2006, 02:03 PM
I have many friends who dip their MD fries in their shakes. I thought it was a WI thing...guess not! The weirdness has spread throughout the whole country...LOL!!!

Yea, we have been doing it for years!
How did you get started?
(See my explination below)

05-03-2006, 02:38 PM
JENNIFER!!! I took the stupid test, all 40 questions of it, just out of curiousity, then they told me I had to get set up an "account" to see the results!!! Why didn't you tell me that!!! (And, I might add, I think I did fairly well. I only guessed on two or three.)

Ava Rose
05-03-2006, 04:12 PM
Jennifer and I seem to be the same thing on different ends of the spectrum at times. lol. Very funny. I told her one day she would be brought over to my side. lol. C'mon Jenn, don't resist the Dark Side of the force.

I love IQ tests. I think I took one that I didn't need an account for. I don't remember where though. I'm sure you did smashing, Jackie. You don't need a test to tell you that. Maybe the real IQ test is seeing if set up an account to get your results. LOL.

Ava Rose
05-03-2006, 04:14 PM
Oh by the way, I used to listen to my mom's Anne Murray record! I haven't heard that name in years. She was the "I am woman here me roar" chick, right?

05-03-2006, 04:38 PM
No, I think the roaring chick was Helen Ready. Anne Murray, as I'm sure Brenda can tell you, is Canadian. She did "Can I have this dance for the rest of my life", and "Daydream Believer".

The question about the IQ test...Do people who sign up for an account pass or fail, LOL?

05-03-2006, 05:56 PM
The I.Q. TEst thing...

I did not know that they asked you to sign up to get the "Results".:eek:

But I went there and did the test, then did the sign up thing and simply put in my yahoo junk mail address fo the email. (GREAT for use when you don't want your regular email spammed, just create a spam yahoo address!!!)

Once I did that, they showed me a Walmart (Snort!) comecial. I clicked SKIP and got the results.... It was still free, they just want your email to spam you. So just give hem a junk email address.

And mine are...
Should I tell???

Again, sorry, I just thought it would be fun. But it is stillf ree so what they hey...

05-03-2006, 08:09 PM
I think Helen Reddy sang both You and Me Against the World and I Am Woman. Didn't she also sing Angie Baby?

05-03-2006, 09:23 PM
Yes, she did!
I love Anne Murray!

Ava Rose
05-03-2006, 11:36 PM
That's right, Helen Ready....that was the record my mom had.

05-09-2006, 12:30 AM
it never ends it seems

05-09-2006, 10:41 PM
Just another line in the sand....
Peaople will cross it because crossing is easier than fighting...
Others wil not even realise they crossed it, untill they look back and see how far they are from reality. Too sad.

Ava Rose
05-10-2006, 07:48 AM
It seems the gays are taking the approach of discrimmination in general and not sexually. So, their movement follows suit of miniorities who sought equality in education and every facet of life. It is a smart move for them to make, actually. Gives them a firmer leg to stand on. Of course I am in complete disagreement. So, if they don't use the terms "mom" and "dad", then what will they use? Parent? Geesh, if miniorities had the same public standing their maybe no "Black History Month", just history, like it should be. (clairification: if history was taught from an unbaised point of view, "black history month" would not be needed because blacks and other minorities would be taught alongside every other person who contributed to history.)
I for one, do not see the correlation between gays and miniorities. I guess if I were not a Chrisitan, I may. The secular world tends to view this as a fight for rights and not sin entering in. Oh well, one step closer to Jesus coming back, IMO. The Word tells us that the world will have to get bad before His return. I just pray I can afford to hs until rapture. lol.

05-10-2006, 08:47 AM
The difference between gays and minorities is that a minority has NO CHOICE in the matter. You don't chose to be black or handicapped or whatever. But sexual orientation is a CHOICE. Yes, it is an extremely difficult lifestyle to come out of, but it can be done.

Ava Rose
05-11-2006, 11:22 AM
The difference between gays and minorities is that a minority has NO CHOICE in the matter. You don't chose to be black or handicapped or whatever. But sexual orientation is a CHOICE. Yes, it is an extremely difficult lifestyle to come out of, but it can be done.

Amen! I agree. Sadly, I think the rest of the world is slowly being convinced the other way. Which is why this direction seems to be working. I have heard from many thinking and sometimes christian people,"if it was a choice then why choose such a hard life??" Odd rationale to me, but then again, I go strictly by the book (Bible).

05-11-2006, 12:33 PM
My response to that question would be "Why do some chose Hell?" My uncle chose to be homeless. He was offered a home and job by his brother, but there was no gambling in that part of the country so he turned it down. My DSSs have seen first-hand poverty, heartache, and despair their mother's lifestyle offers, yet have both chosen that over being held responsible.

05-11-2006, 01:05 PM
My response would be "you don't think it's a hard life being a Christian"? No matter how anyone looks at it, life in general is hard no matter who you are, in one way or another. It's a give and take on every side of the fence. So, if anyone ever asks me "why choose such a hard life", it doesn't hold water with me. Anyone elses life is just as hard...just in different areas.

Ava Rose
05-11-2006, 02:28 PM
I think people can be awfully one dimensional. As you said Jen, being anything is hard. And we all choose our path, the good Lord gave us free will. Some gays have been decieved in thinking they didn't actually make that choice. But I also know some who didn't think they choose a hard life as well, yet did. We tend to live in a world where people choose to be complicated. There is beautiful simplicity in Christ. This isn't to say hard times will never arise...but why face any hard times without Christ. Why??? Because some simply don't believe he is who he says he is. That is really the question people should be asking themselves: Is Christ who He says He is?? Is there any other political or historical person who has changed and influenced the world like Him? After thousands of years, people are still professing the Jesus is Lord! Are we all nuts?? Or is Christ worth taking a look at? Most other religions are fairly young compared to Chrisitanity. And all compare themselves to Christianity. Just seems to me, people would take a long hard look at Christ before denoucing him. After thousands of years, he is still so hated! Why would he be so loved and hated if he were just a man? NO MAN has had that kind of influence consisitently over the years. Like C. S. Lewis said, Christ is either a liar, crazy, or who he says he is. Which do you choose?? That is the question I like to ask.

05-11-2006, 04:21 PM
Well, yes and no. It depends on how old you date Christianity. Do we date it from the Ressurection? In that case, both Confucious (551 BC) and Buddha (563 BC) predate Christ. And Hinduism is older than that. BUT if you consider our Jewish roots, Abraham was 2100 BC. But actually you can take it back to Adam and Eve. I mean, who did THEY worship in the Garden?

The interesting thing about Buddha and Confucious is that neither one claimed to be a god. They considered themselves just men, trying to live what they would consider a "righteous" life. Much of what they taught is actually Biblical, though some of it wasn't, such as the worship of ancestors. It wasn't until after they were dead and gone that people tried to deify them.

Ava Rose
05-11-2006, 06:27 PM
I was thinking more like back to Adam and Eve. However, in the world, I Christianity isn't Christianity until Christ--duh, of course. Sometimes, I guess I forget there is a world that doesn't date a savior back to the beginning of the world. lol.

I took a Buddest Philosophy class in college. I was constantly harrassed by those trying to take biblical themes out of Buddha's teachings. In fact, there are many also word for word, quotes of Buddha that sound like Christ. I also learned that although Buddha didn't claim deity....he was supposedly a virgin birth. I will have to dig up my old Buddest Philosophy books and look that up. In fact, the whole story on Buddha's birth is interesting fiction---probably just made up by a follower trying to deify him. Anyway, students were always saying that since Buddha and Jesus said similar things then both must be just men. Did I forget to mention this was an upper level college class?? uh, yeah. I will admit my faith is often so strong I fail to see rationale in some statements but I don't think I am off by saying that is nuts. Regardless, I still don't see any other figure historically, religiously, or politically, that has influenced the world like Jesus. There are even secular historians who have said that. Here again, my faith may be getting ahead of me. I often have to smack myself in the head and say, "think...talk like you know not everyone has the same faith."

Funny, in the Buddhist Philo class the teacher asked people to come to the front of the room to meditate. I thought that was such a joke! I mean if a World Religions teacher asked the class to pray to God, I am sure that would cause an uproar. World Religions, by the way, was another very interesting class. I am a antropologist at heart I think...I find people and their way of life very interesting.

05-11-2006, 07:25 PM
Then you surely know more about it than I do! Sounds like an...interesting...class! All I know basically is what I read in my girls' history book. Though one gal who teaches Sunday School to my kids is a former Buddhist! Perhaps Jesus and Buddhist said similar things because Godly principals such as showing respect and kindness to all are simply good ideas, even to "good" (but not Godly) people.

05-12-2006, 08:13 AM
That is why I have always said that someone doesn't have to believe in God or be religious to follow most of the 10 Commandments. They are just common sense;).