Talk me down from the ledge - I'm about to put Sam back in school [Archive]

MonkeyMamma

01-08-2009, 09:34 AM

Ok ladies I have about had it with my daughter and am so ready to put her back in school.

Every single day is a constant struggle with her regarding math. EVERYDAY. I just can not do this anymore. I dread each day with her. She can't remember anything we've done. We get to a review problem and she just has no clue what to do. I want her to use her brain and remember and think things through but she just doesn't. She whines like a baby and wants me to just tell her how to do it. I have already told her how to do it over an dover again but each and everytime it is the same thing and I refuse to do it for her.

She is in 7th grade and should take more responsibility for herself at this age but she wants mommy to hold her hand through everything. Mommy has to remind her of everything everyday and I hate this. I feel like I am doing her a disservice by continuing to hs her. I feel like she needs to get out there and toughen up and think for herself.

I am at ther point where I am ready right now to take her and sign her up at the junior high and just keep Grace home and hs her. I HATE hs'ing Sam now and i use to love it. But this everyday struggle has worn me smooth out.

Birbitt

01-08-2009, 09:39 AM

((((HUGS)))) Sorry I have no ideas for you on this one as my children are the age of your Grace. Only thing I can think of is to find a reward/concequence system that motivates her to do her work. Sorry

rmcx5

01-08-2009, 09:50 AM

Can't say I have any super-duper advice BUT I can agree with you that it sounds like she needs to toughen up a bit and take some responsibility (but that's just based on your post)....of course, my kids have been known to say "I'm not fun" especially about school work.

My other thought was...does she maybe have a learning disability (or at challenge) in math. Has it always been a problem? The reason I ask is because we're in the midst of working with DD8 on some processing deficits thru OT and having her assessed by a psychologist next week. If Sam's issue is just stubborn-like issues than might be time to lay down the law. If it's truly a weakness that leans towards a learning disability, then that's a different issue altogether.

My DD8 is very smart BUT she definitely has some issues that weren't always evident until she just sort of "hit the wall" and it became apparent to me that it was more than laziness (which is how it seemed and still does sometimes)...but it's not. It's frustration and adversion tactics because it's just hard for her to process the info and recall it (even though she knows it...just takes more for her to access the info in her brain).

BIG HUGS!!!! Maybe take a day off from math and regroup for tomorrow?

Rhonda

ColoradoMom

01-08-2009, 09:50 AM

I hate to say it, but it sounds to me like both of you need a break.

Not from homeschool though. Do you really think she will magically perform if you send her to school?

Not likely.

It sounds to me like she is crying out that she is STRESSED about math and feeling overwhelmed.

Honestly, the reason we homeschool is to give our kids the time they require to learn.

Just my take away form your post - but it appears that she needs to take a few steps backwards and then NOT be judged harshly for it.

If she is not making progress, then she needs to relearn something.

Go backwards. ;)

Kids will act out when they get stressed and they are not able to say:

"I can't do it. I need to slow down. I need more time."

As parents we need to learn to recognize when their actions are screaming those words.

TeacherMom

01-08-2009, 09:51 AM

Okay, first of all step back from the school you are standing too close!
Second of all I feel your pain! BUT I MAY have come onto a solution!

We are creating index cards that are clues to Math...
I am having ds write up the Formulas for Geometry, Rules for adding and subracting fractions, multpl. Div, fractions.. etc...
Decimals too!
Then we also have done two piles of Factors and Multiples..
We did 12 times tables through this, and got a Science board to put them all in cut pockets on.

He has a help at hands reach this way!
YEsterday it really proved useful as he did the common denominator fraction reduction etc... he just said OH! PUlled his pile out, realised it was the wrong pile and grabbed the other one!

He had the list to look at , copy off the numbers and decide what is LCD< and GCF, no prob!

I am doing this to help him, but also so I dont have to get frustrated. MY ds is 11 .5 so is probably at similar level as your dd.
IF you have her work on the project plan for two days at least of writing up the "Math CLues" and "Formulas" cards, and one for hte facors and multiples... it took us a long time because figuring it out is one thing then checking to see if its right is another hahah!
So.....
I will take a pic and post it on my weblog when I get it done with him today!
THen you can see what we have done and if you want to have yoru dd do one.. it makes a great fold it up and put it away LARGE SIZED folder that also blocks out sibling while working in cubicle form!

KrisRV

01-08-2009, 10:55 AM

Tiffany here's a big (((((((((((hug)))))))))) first of all don't send her to ps you will not be happy. Will she learn any better NO. Second of all she is more then likely having trouble and telling you. Ok Tiffany I went through that last year with my youngest and what work for us is teaching text I really mean it, it's great the girl is running through it like nothing. So, have you thought of getting her a computer math class something for her to sit down and do on her own. It works it really does.
Also, Tiffany just to let you know I went through the same thing I mean it, my little one would never do nothing if I left the room to go to the bathroom and came back believe me nothing I mean nothing was done. So, yes it will change get something to hold her interst that is what I found that works for us. ALot of comptuer program learning. Its been alot better year this year and we are in the 8th grade.
I wish you luck and hope things turn out better for you and you don't have to send her back. But, remember we will be behind you in no matter what you decide to do for you and your family.

skyecamp

01-08-2009, 11:07 AM

Is there anyone else that can do math with her? Maybe trade with another hs mom or have special time at night to work with just dad? Sometimes a different person might be able to explain things in a certain way that clicks better. I also think that looking into seeing if she has a learning challenge in that area is a good idea....if nothing else then to at least rule it out.

goodnsimple

01-08-2009, 11:16 AM

I am struggling with this to a lesser degree.
I have to continually remind myself that we spent 3 hours a night in tears from homework when ds went to public school.
For us it is writing and not math...but same sceanario. He can't remember how to spell anything. and he can't think of anything to write and at the end of it all, I am not sure who wrote the poem...him or me. I don't need to write poems!!!
He reads the same words incorrectly over and over and does not remember anything from what we read yesterday. Who is Gilgamesh...no idea.
He is immature, and I have to remember that he wouldn't "toughen up" in school, he would fall apart.

this is just an idea...how about going to a lifestyle math...keeping track of money...even a budget unit. Basic stuff that has real life application...then paint a room (pretend) and figure out the paint...and how much gas will you need to get to grandmas...and let her get some confidence in things that make sense. It might work, even at her age to go back to manipulatives.

(for writing we are doing letters and e-mail, because that he can see the point of.)

I am also really trying to get ds to learn how to look stuff up himself...it is a struggle. (he is 11, so we are a "year behind" you...and of course boys are a bit less mature than girls, so it may be apples and oranges.)

goodnsimple

01-08-2009, 11:23 AM

I read your post again and had an idea.

I took algebra in 9th grade...it was Greek to me. horrid, I never felt so stupid. My father dispaired. He commented that I would "get it" and then the next day not understand the same thing. I took it again in 10th grade and it was a bit better, but I did not do any math in hs beyond Geometry.
Then in College it all fell into place. I don't love math, but I understand it.
So maybe she isn't being stubborn. (maybe she is?!)
Maybe she really can't get it to stick.
I felt so stupid, and in a Psych class, we were discussing the development of abstract thinking. I was definitly a late bloomer. I think that current math texts tend to the abstract sooner than they used to. (I am noticing it in Saxon 6th grade)
My point is if it is not stubbornness, but developmental...all there is to do is wait. If it helps any, I have a good job and I use algebra almost every day.

MonkeyMamma

01-08-2009, 11:55 AM

I know that putting her in school won't do anything but cause her to fail math class. But she needs something to make her not such a baby about everything. Everything is always too hard. Every chapter is too long. Every day there is something.

Putting her back in school would screw everything else up too - our entire schedule and life will change. But what can I do? She needs to thicken her skin a bit. She needs to toughen up.

There isn't anyone else to do math with her. She may very well have some sort of learning disability. I don't know.

I printed off some sheets with things she was having trouble with and she is doing them now after standing in the corner for 10 minutes. I told her if she wants to act like a baby I will treat her like one.

I mean this is just too much for me. I don't know what to do. I just hate this.

JenniferErix

01-08-2009, 12:08 PM

come to my house and drink rum and coke with me while the girls roam around upstairs playing dress up.

What specifically are ya'll working on? Math topic?

mamamuse

01-08-2009, 12:22 PM

Hugs! I think you've gotten some great advice! Math was a huge struggle for us last year; but this year, Teaching Textbooks has helped so much. Every once in a while I'll need to help him with something but for the most part, it's all right there: if he gets stuck, he just clicks the button for a clue, and he can go back and review the lecture as many times as he needs to. It has totally removed the power struggle we used to have over math.

I'd also be concerned about a problem with math. I was always in honors-level english courses, but remedial math. Even now it just doesn't "stick" and I don't know why. I'm just not wired that way. Maybe your DD is the same?

TeacherMom

01-08-2009, 12:26 PM

which math ar eyou using? I looked at yoru curric andit was unconclusive.... okay let me decipher that... which math are you using? I looked at yor Curriculuim and it was not clear what one you use?

gwenny99

01-08-2009, 12:32 PM

It sounds like she might have math anxiety (something we struggled with until just this year - 7th grade) and maybe you need to find a different math program or just a different approach. Maybe try something that is a bit more hands off for you so she doesn't feel the need to "rely" on you to hold her hand, you know? Teaching Textbooks and DVD programs like that may be the answer. We started this year using the Keys to . . .series (we used fractions last year and ds score in the top 97th percentile in that section.) We are also using stuff like a spectrum review book to go over stuff that we may not have a good grasp on - and stuff like the keys to and spectrum may help because she feels more confident as it is review, not new stuff.

Also, we picked up a big book called "10 things all Mathematicians and Scientist should know" and it is a fun and interesting book about all the different ways we need math - it has small stories about things like the Challenger explosion, or why you would lose a bit to a friend about how fast you can ride your bike to school. It is more of a practical application of math and my ds gets a kick out of it.

Finally, you might let her decide what she needs to learn in math. Ask her what she wants to study for the week, month, semester. Ask her what she wants to work on. If she feels more in control, maybe that will help her attitude toward math.

One final thing - when Aden was struggling, we used the Quote from Edison on failure. When asked if he felt like he failed because he still hadn't made the lightbulb work after 2000 tries, Edison said "No. I just discovered 2000 ways NOT to make a light bulb!"

Try to work with her on learning from our mistakes. What did we learn NOT to do with this problem we got wrong? What did we learn from this lesson today- even if it was hard and we got all the answers wrong? This was a big step for us, to be able to say "Today we learned how NOT to do long division! How NOT to mulitply fractions!"

Best of luck!

MonkeyMamma

01-08-2009, 12:41 PM

come to my house and drink rum and coke with me while the girls roam around upstairs playing dress up.

:D Best advice so far!!! LOL!!

Seriously I have no idea what I am going to do. I don't want to put her in ps at all. I really don't! And I know it will help nothing but maybe my sanity.

We have tried taking a break from it but when we go back to it it is the same thing all over again.

We use Math U See. We are in Zeta this year which is all about decimals. But it isn't the decimals she has trouble with - she has trouble with things from last year with fractions. They are basically reviewed in each lesson. Each lesson you learn a new concept and then also review on what you previously learned. It is the review stuff she can't remember. She never knows what to do even though we do it everyday.

Shelley

01-08-2009, 12:44 PM

I feel your pain. I really do.

Last year, I tried first grade Saxon math with my daughter. It was a nightmare. I dreaded math time with a passion unlike any other. My daughter's inability to do any of it without constant help and explanation was only made worse by the fact that her younger brother was flying through it.

So, this year, we are doing first grade again but with a different curriculum. I am following the teacher's manual as precisely as I can. We do a review time and an overview using every visual I can get my hands on. The curriculum we're using this year is very colorful and visual, and she's done much better with it.

I've also learned to let her use whatever manipulatives she needs to get the job done. She can use counting blocks, a number line, her fingers, whatever. I've just accepted that she needs that stuff.

For the first time ever, I gave her a supplemental page of simple addition problems to do and set her to do the first column all by herself; she could use whatever manipulatives she wanted. I busied myself with something else, fully expecting that she wouldn't have done a darn thing by the time I returned. However, I was pleasantly surprised to find she'd not only done the first column but was working quickly through the second--- all on her own! Trust me, that was unheard of in any subject, let alone math, before that day.

Set her a very few problems to do on her own--- start at something very small, like 3. Give her access to whatever charts, manipulatives, etc. will help her. Give her plenty of time to do it and then some--- like 20 minutes--- so she won't feel rushed. If she hasn't done them, take something away--- a toy, game, privilege. Then, give her 15 minutes to get them done. Again, if they aren't done, take something away.

This might help her focus and not feel too overwhelmed by a page full of equations.

MonkeyMamma

01-08-2009, 12:53 PM

Birbitt

01-08-2009, 12:59 PM

Have her start writing things down. Let her lapbook the steps to complete her math problems and then let her refer to that until it just magically sticks in her memory. Keep a notepad by the phone so she can write down phone messages and she won't have to remember them. Give her a small notepad and pen that can hang around her neck or on her belt loops that she can use to jot down things that she needs to remember. I used to have very much the same problem...I could remember a concept long enough to take the test on it but after that I forgot it all. I've gotten much better but it took years of writing everything down to retrain my brain to memorize things.

pdalley

01-08-2009, 01:01 PM

I had this issue with my oldest this week and he is a math whiz.

I backed him up to Delta and yesterday his math was done in ten minutes with no tears and no struggle. The rest of his school work went better as a result.

He does have learning disabilities - the Autism being the primary but I fully believe he has some sort of reading problem I cannot get anyone to tell me how to indentify or help. If he were in school again he would simply drown.

I was concerned at the end of second grade when they insisted on promoting him though his reading was poor. In the fourth grade (before we pulled him) he read at a 2.3 (yes second grade, three months) level. He can't sound out words, says words that aren't there and basically struggles through the whole thing.

And he's having the same trouble as your daughter with the fractions. He will not read carefully enough to realize what he needs to do. I caught him multiplying a problem he was supposed to be adding.

I started him on a remedial phonics program and have noticed his math is awesome if it isn't a multi step problem. That's where his breakdown is.

I hope some of this rambling has helped you some.

Peggy

TeacherMom

01-08-2009, 01:06 PM

I am telling you make these cards up! Ds said it works great Makes math easier! he is working with fractions , stuff he knows but was so frustrated about it we were back to tantrums and "whats math?" attitudes, He said its easy!
" Me? I think its easy!" Lol
I will take photos and post them on my blog later today or tomorrow, take a break from math tomorrow if you can!

rmcx5

01-08-2009, 01:36 PM

I think she may have more of a memory problem than a math problem now that I think of it.

What do you think?

She can learn a new concept no problem and do the page or pages required but two lessons later when those same problem are on her page as review she can't do them. She can't remember the steps or what to do at all.

She also is very forgetfull at other things.

I can not tell her (for example) to put her laundry away, get the broom for me and pick up her shoes. She will only do one thing and forget to do the rest.

If I am in the shower and someone calls she will not remember to tell me. She does this all the time. My dh will call, she will answer and then two hours later he calls back and she goes "oh I forgot he called a long time ago".

Okay the more I think about this the more I think I have discovered a whole new issue with her. Maybe, just maybe, it isn't math at all but something in the way of memory problems?

I'd like to know everyones take on this.

This is part of my DD8's issues. Her issues became more apparent with writing and spelling versus math BUT math takes her longer to finish than most children her age.

She scores in the 99th percentile on fill in the bubble achievement tests but in a timed written test, we know she would not do well. She's having psycho-ed testing on Tuesday to help us determine if her processing issues may be hampered by attention ones as well (although if she has ADD it is mild). Most of her processing issues...many like you described....seem like attention ones only because she compensates by seeking distractions because its just too hard for her. She has been diagnosed thru OT with motor delays and processing deficits. It's not an intelligence issues but more a processing. She's never been good at multi-step directions either.

As for fractions, my oldest used Keys to Fractions (relatively cheap) and it helped a lot for her initial intro to fractions. We didn't finish it because she started liking it better in her Horizons book but they were very useful.

Gotta run to her OT appt but feel free to PM later if you want to compare what I noticed with DD8 versus yours if you think that would help.

(((HUGS)))
Rhonda

Ohio Mom

01-08-2009, 01:38 PM

Teacher Mom, I think that is a great idea. I will start to use that. My ds is in 8th grade also and seems to want me there to "help" him do every aspect of school. I have tried every which way to help him. I think Tiffany, you should try it, too. I like the idea of the pencil and notebook tied around the neck, too. She sounds just like my ds. Praying that something that has been suggested works, if not, go to JenniferErix's house, I'll meet you there:)

JenniferErix

01-08-2009, 01:44 PM

I think you are on to something, Tiff.

My oldest has A.D.O.S. =
Attention. Deficient....... OOOOH! Shiny!

Seriously, the boy has done this LIVE in front of us so many times....

Anyway......

Some people have a problem with subjects because there seems to be no end or point to them....

Ever been on a long journey, that you have never been on before, and you have NO MAP and you wonder if the trip is EVER going to end, and you begin to question the drivers MENTAL capabilities for wanting to drive THIS far out in to nowhereland???

Math is sometimes like that for kids.. They have no MileMarkers to let them know where they are...

My kids are like that so we did this....

I literally walked my boys to my stairwell and SHOWED them how math is based on building blocks....

I told them to go to the tenth step.
They did.
I then told them to look down and see how high up they were.... Then told them to come down.
Then we noted how far UP that tenth step was.

They were then instructed to get to the tenth step withOUT using the other nine steps.
They laughed, and said we CAN'T mom! It is toooo far.

Well of course it is...
So, what do you say we make some steps to the tenth step, won't that be easier?
Yes, they replied....

Ok, so we talked about what we could make the steps out of. ....materials... and such...
I suggested we use sticks from the backyard. They agreed and so mentally we imagined building sticks into stairs...

Now....
Can you walk up those stick stairs to get to the tenth step?
Yes. It does get you there.
But what about as you get older and bigger and you have to run faster up the stairs. (Because you WILL get older and bigger) and school work goes at a faster pace)..

OH!
So we imagined what would happen to those quickly made stick stairs if we were bigger and had to stomp up the stairs...

Right, they would break. And no getting to the tenth step.

So what is the solution that will get us to the tenth step, no matter how big we get or how fast we need to get there?

"Make them SOLID.!!"
EXACTLY!

So, we need a solid foundation to build each step on...

We stepped together one the first step.
This is the numbers step. First we learn our numbers.

Then we stepped on to the next step and said... Now we learn about greater than and less than and the order of numbers...

Then on the third step (Again, while giggling together)...
Addition and Subtraction. A set of twin brothers who are the opposite of each other and who love to UNDO what the OTHER one just did! But they are the BASIC operation of EVERY math problem...
So when we are learning our Addition and subtraction, we need to be sure we completely understand that step. MAKE IT SOLID!

On to the NEXT step....
And Multiplication and Division are brothers as well that are opposite sides of the same coin. You need one and the other, If you understand one, you will understand the other.... Multiplication is the opposite action of division and division is undoing of multiplication. They love to undo each others work, it makes them laugh. (To this my twins were giggling uncontrollably) But multiplication and divisipon are a step UP from Addition and subtraction because they are SHORT CUTS of Addition and Subtraction... so they make your job EASIER!! (Yea from the boys). So we want THAT step to be what? "SOLID!" Right...

Next step.... Fractions... which is really a fancy word for division... Bottom number tells us how many parts we have all together, the top number tells us how many we are pointing out...

Then comes the decimal points.. Which are VERY related to fractions. But instead of being opposite sides of each other, like addition and subtraction are.. or the way Division and Multiplication are... Fractions and Decimal points are more like Identical Twin brothers who choose to have different hair cuts... They both speak the SAME language and SAY the SAME thing, they just choose to do it differently.. one is a cool kid on a skateboard (Fractions) the other is a computer nerd into bits and bytes (Decimal point).
Nail these guys down and you are pretty much a genius! Make it SOLID!

What is next? Negative numbers!
Whoooooo Hoooooo!
Don't let them scare you , they are simply the same numbers you see on a thermometer.. they just like to pretend they are ALL THAT and a bag of chips.... But we know better... hahahaha!

Math goes on like this for a while, but if you know where you are and where you are going, you can enjoy the ride more.. and complain about the trip it self, less....

So, what is the tenth step? Algebra.
And without a base foundation of solid steps to get to it, we will eventually fail before reaching it.

This is what me and my third grade boys discussed while Physically walking UP and Down the stairs together to visualize the problem and solutions...

They get it now, and we now understand how math is related.

They needed that because it put math into perspective, and was no longer this constant never arriving journey to nowhere land called math.

Ok, hope that helps, sorry for it being so long...

Ohio Mom

01-08-2009, 01:49 PM

Wow, Jennifer, you are the genius!!! Did you think this up all on your own? I think it is a great way to explain it. Thanks - I can even use this for Elijah - in any subject we do. Again, thanks!!!

Birbitt

01-08-2009, 01:51 PM

Jen I wish you were my teacher in school...man I so would have "got" math if you were. I am horrible at math to this day...but I'm hoping that starting over with my boys using MUS will help me learn math too.

TeacherMom

01-08-2009, 01:51 PM

we use pizza for fractions too cause ds and I love pizza, so we divide up the slices and compare pizzas,

TeacherMom

01-08-2009, 01:52 PM

I like the stairs thing, would have come in handy if we had stairs, but we dont.. so we used what worked for us, I think thats the key you are sayin right Jen? Use what you have?

goodnsimple

01-08-2009, 02:11 PM

I think she may have more of a memory problem than a math problem now that I think of it.

She also is very forgetfull at other things.

Ok...I have not read past this post yet. I wanted to answer before I get off track.
Dr. M. Levine - The Myth of Laziness.
and A Mind at a Time.
I read the second one for a child psych class. It describes this exactly. I have wanted to get ds tested, but it is 3500$$ (plus a trip to NY or North Carolina)
However, I am thinking that at least getting a handle on the "root" problem has been helpful, even if I am left to cobble together my solution.
My approach has been, for the most part. a stab at patience. (it has been a learning process for me too) We are taking it back to the basics of organization, and how to look back in the book find the explanations. taking notes (we are struggling with that.)
Understanding it is memory and filing memory that we are having trouble with, not "stupid" or "lazy" all though sometimes I don't do as well with that.
Hey Jen....I want to come too. (for the rum and coke)

JenniferErix

01-08-2009, 02:13 PM

Thanks Guys,
But yea. I mean use what you have.
Besides, if you wanna use the stairs analogy excersize on your kids, just go to the library or city hall or anywhere there may be stairs where you are...

It was really just a moment when I saw their frustrations and just grabbed them and said, look guys, Here is where we are, we are going to be doing math for the next 10 years, at LEAST..
GRoan...

I suddenly realized that they were breathlessly looking for the OFF ramp, and whinning because the ride never seemed to end...

They needed a mile marker system to show them where they are how far they have come, where they are going and WHY WHY WHY...

They WHY is the biggest part for many kids for sure...

When I explain that learning each new step makes the previous one EASIER, they liked that..

But the smart one states the obvious: "So why don't we just jump to the top one and do THAT one?"

So I replied.. Sure.. Hop to step 16...
He couldn't..///
EXACTLY, we NEED the other steps to GET to the other stuff..

Ok, anyway, yea, pull this outa my rear one day when we were having a "Where are we going with this anyway" moments...

Give them mile markers to know where they are.

This did not cure any learning disabilities..
It simply quelled a current (For us) and often for others attitude problem that most kids face at some point in time, when it comes to math.

But learning that many math concepts are twins that undo each other, or that say the same thing only differently was a HUUUUGE leap for my kids.

JenniferErix

01-08-2009, 02:17 PM

Wait!
Did I just type all of that and totally gloss over that some were taking me up on the come over a visit with rum and coke??

I am stuuupid!
Come on over!

MonkeyMamma

01-08-2009, 02:20 PM

Wow.

All of you have such wonderful ideas and you have all offered such great support!

I think I need to go back through this thread a couple times and read each idea again.

Teacher Mom I love the idea of the cards! I think Sam would like that too.

She gave me a big hug a minute ago and said "I love you mommy. Why is it that we get along so well all the time except for during school?" I just said I didn't know, gave her a kiss and told her we both need to work on things.

I need to work on how to help her work on her issues. Make sense?

She and I are having a sleepover tonight. Just me and her in her room doing girly things and talking about anything and everything. Maybe just maybe we can at least begin to figure it all out. We have no school tomorrow because it is my birthday and I am taking them out of town to grandma's for the weekend. 3 days off I hope will do some good and the sleepover will give us mommy/daughter time hwich may help too.

JenniferErix

01-08-2009, 02:21 PM

HAPPY BIRTHDAY!
Whose watchin the kids while you and I paint the town red???
Hahahahah!

goodnsimple

01-08-2009, 02:21 PM

Jen
(today I am queen of the double post)
You are a genius.
I sent Jazz down the steps and read your post.
"oh!" He said (the same boy who 5 min ago said math was boring) "I never thought about it that way. That's cool"

and we got around to negative numbers...and I said they are like a -5 and -10 are sitting around saying...it's too cold, and I am bored and this is stupid. Those are some NEGATIVE numbers. ha ha.
but really I just read your post. thank you.

MonkeyMamma

01-08-2009, 02:25 PM

HAPPY BIRTHDAY!
Whose watchin the kids while you and I paint the town red???
Hahahahah!

Thanks!

The kids are going to my parents for the weekend. Hubby and me, my best friend and her partner are supposed to go have dinner and play pool (somehting I have not done in about 10 years!) on Saturday night! Wanna come????? The more the merrier! Bring the rum and coke!! Never mind we will order it while we play a game of pool. We are actually going to celebrate me and my best friends bdays. Hers in 9 days after mine.

Oh yeah my mom's bday is Sunday and Grace's is the 28th. Lots of January bdays!

MonkeyMamma

01-08-2009, 02:26 PM

Jennifer R

01-08-2009, 02:55 PM

Tiffany, how long of a break did you guys take for the holidays? Is this your first week back? Granted, this may be a problem from before break but getting back into the groove may be part of the problem. We are definitely having that problem this week. That and appts have TOTALLY messed up this week. Maybe take a week of only review and find out how much she truly doesn't get and how much is laziness. I'm still blown away from time to time the things I take for granted my dd knows and it turns out she doesn't.

I just went back and read a few of your posts I missed earlier. The "forgetfullness" reminds me so much of Joyce! If it's something she really wants to be doing, she can totally focus without a problem. I've even had her tell me a few years ago "Mama, I WAS listening to you but I didn't hear you!" and I actually understood what she meant. I would love to find something to make her more focused. I would blame it on the age but this is something I've had to work with her on since she was little. I remember when she was small I would tell her to "listen to me with your eyes". I could tell her mind was going on everything except what I was saying.

JenniferErix

01-08-2009, 03:12 PM

Crap on a stick!

"Negative numbers being "Negative" abou tthings...
Tooo Funny!

hahahahha

Thanks for that.
I will have to use that!
hahha

goodnsimple

01-08-2009, 03:51 PM

Crap on a stick!

On a stick?!! eewwwwwww.
Now there is a mental picture:shock:

JenniferErix

01-08-2009, 04:31 PM

It is a "Fix" for something else on a stick that I used to say....

My sister in law makes me spit out my milk through my nose, every time she replaces "Jesus Christ" with: "Cheese and Crackers!"

Jennifer R

01-08-2009, 05:40 PM

Jen, my mom did not allow any type of replacement words when we were growing up so imagine my shock when I heard her start using "sugar tit" in place of something else! I'm usually pretty good in not using "cuss" words but picked up one in Germany that stuck with me. Well, when my ds was around 2, we were in the checkout line and he started sing-songing the word. I hear a chuckle behind me and turn around to see this tiny, elderly woman. She said that her mil was German and had taught her cuss words in German!

JenniferErix

01-08-2009, 05:57 PM

Re: Cuss words in Foreign languages....

I learned Russian back in the 90's...
Imagine my shock when commercials for Borat: Cultural Learnings of America for Make Benefit Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan first hit the airwaves. (That movie with the actor pretending to be from Kazakhstan, traveling through the usa) .......
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/3/39/Borat_ver2.jpg/200px-Borat_ver2.jpg

Well.....

In Kazakhstan, they speak Russian.....
They were a part of the U.S.S.R.
Kazakhstan declared itself an independent country on December 16, 1991, the last Soviet republic to do so...

ANYWAY......

Borat is Russian for (Insert word that means wifely duty and starts with an F)

Yea! THAT word!

The joke is on the US for broadcasting that word all over their airwaves..
Even Russian papers were laughing about it.
But...
In Russia, the Federal Culture and Cinematography Agency refused to certify the film for distribution, effectively banning it from the country's theaters.[97]

Jennifer R

01-08-2009, 06:00 PM

Ouch!

mamaof3peas

01-08-2009, 06:27 PM

Hey Tiffany, wanted to say happy birthday tomorrow. Mine is tomorrow too! I will be 30, ugh! Anywho, i hope you and your dd have some luck soon. My dd and i occasionally have issues with school, and it is usually math, lol so i know how you feel. I think it is sweet that you two will have a sleep over, i may have to do that with my dd sometime! :)Heather

becky

01-08-2009, 06:42 PM

Jeannie gives me baloney everyday about math. Since it cannot go this way, I asked myself-

am I reviewing enough? It needs to be done everyday, until I see she completely gets whatever it is.
Am I explaining enough? I need to remember this is new to her, and she needs to be instructed from the ground up.
Why am I losing my temper with her? Getting in a back and forth mouth battle isn't going to get the math done. I've started moving on and coming back to it- the same day. No leaving it for tomorrow. This means skipping activities sometimes.

Her evaluator told me today to not be afraid of holding her to a higher standard. They would in school, so I should, too.

I also want to say that she goes for testing in March, at the elementary. All the county third graders are, and hsers can opt in. I totally expect her to not do as well in math. If it's bad enough, I will enroll her next year. Hsing isn't worth it if the child isn't getting what they need because of daily arguing over a subject. JMHO.

TeacherMom

01-08-2009, 06:47 PM

Ohio Mom

01-08-2009, 06:57 PM

OK, you gals are not going to believe this, but...

Elijah and I did the steps (thanks Jennifer). He thought it was a game, but when I was done, it was like a light bulb went on. He thought that was really neat and said you must be very smart.

Anyway, I also decided to make the cards with formulas on them. As I sat and did that, I got out his next book - Pre-Algebra - and was going to write formulas for that too. He came to me and asked what I was doing. I told him looking at the next book, he said I know how to do most of that. He asked if he could start right now - I told him if he could do one of the problems in each lesson, he could go onto the next lesson. He is on Lesson 20 already and going strong. I can't believe he wanted to do this on his own. He was so excited:shock:

Has he finally growing up and maturing or is he finally understanding why? I'm so excited, can you tell?:wink:

JenniferErix

01-08-2009, 07:56 PM

OK, you gals are not going to believe this, but...

Elijah and I did the steps (thanks Jennifer). He thought it was a game, but when I was done, it was like a light bulb went on. He thought that was really neat and said you must be very smart.

Ok, blushing over here.... :oops:
Glad it worked for someone else!
It only works for someone who is having trouble seeing the whole "Point" to math..
And I think, only for the lower grades.. I haven't made it past third grade yet, so I am no expert for sure! hahahaha!

becky

01-08-2009, 08:01 PM

Becky I needed to read your post. I am in the middle of a battle trying to get reports written for co op. sigh, How can I go over somthing a million times and they still don't get it? Am I that bad of a teacher?
sorry if I hijacked, but Im on theledge now! Lol!

The evaluator said today that certain phrases can have ulterior meanings. 'I don't know', 'I can't', 'I don't remember', 'this is so stupid', can all mean there's an issue with the subject that the child needs help with. Finding that issue is the problem when you're at your wit's end and the child has a wall up. Personally, I don't get this jazz during science, social studies, health, or any of the other things I do with her here. So, I ask myself 'What is it with this math???' I don't have an answer, TM. I wish I did. I hate being aggravated with my little girl, because I love her with all my heart. I've started telling her she can do the work now, or later instead of swimming or-my personal choice:wink:- Brownies. Yes, I will hold that page for two weeks, until her next meeting! I hate being a bitch( please excuse my language), but her education so so important I'd rather have her where she needs to be and mad at me, than to cave in and have her mathematically ignorant . I'm always afraid one of the snootier ps Brownies will start asking her about being hs'd, and I don't want her made fun of.

KrisRV

01-08-2009, 08:05 PM

Tiffany, I just think you need a rum and coke and new math book and you and Sam will be happier...
Try teaching textbook it works wonderful.

becky

01-08-2009, 08:10 PM

Can I say something else that is just my own personal opinion?
Taking a 'break' from a stressful subject solves nothing. It only puts off handling the situation. I'd be taking a bunch of breaks from math, if I could, because I get so very, very worn out from the daily battles over it. I dread it like some of you do, and when you add in the rest of the usual home stressors, you get pretty tired.

KrisRV

01-08-2009, 08:16 PM

MonkeyMamma

01-08-2009, 08:24 PM

KrisRV

01-08-2009, 08:28 PM

Tiffany, sounds good to me, I will be there. Then maybe we can work something out with Math, you know more then one head together can get alot of work done....

MonkeyMamma

01-08-2009, 08:35 PM

Oh yes Kris! Great idea! You and Jen will be so much help in the math department.

And I have been wanting to meet up with you anyway. What a better way than with rum and cake?!

becky

01-08-2009, 08:42 PM

Becky, that is so true but changing the book could be the answer. Or trying something different. We have to remember ever child is different and learns differently. What works for one might not another. All you can do is keep trying different things until something works.. then again it might never work, math might not be her strong subject.

I personally know that going from curriculum to curriculum can create gaps. Jeannie has yet to do much with measurement, because so far, the curr's we have used did little with it. Before she goes for testing, I have to try and squeeze in a measurement unit. Our state school website has sample test questions, and there were some on there I know Jeannie will not be able to answer. I promise you we did math just about every day of every school year since K. So, what happened??:?

becky

01-08-2009, 08:55 PM

Wow! I go off to dance class and this thread has taken off!

You all are a huge help to me - you have no idea. I love to read this because it helps me look at this situation from different perspectives which is totally awesome.

Becky I kind of agree with you on the break thing. We tried taking breaks before but it actually just gets worse when we come back to it.

Kris you are right girl I need to head to Jen's and have a drink. (actually dh just brought me a cold beer) He said I look like I needed one after a day of dealing with this and then teaching dance classes I am worn out.

Monday we will start fresh. BOTH of us. She isn't the only one. I loose my temper with her too much and like Becky said I hate that I love my little girl!

I just want to thank you all for all your support. I'm gonna eat a big ol piece of birthday cake for each of ya and pretend you are all here! Hey Jen and Kris you two aren't too far. Come on for some cake and rum!

Getting mad at Jeannie over math made me stop and really listen to other moms talk about how they deal with their kids concerning troublesome subjects. I regularly heard these words-

crying(the child)
yelled/yelling/yell(mom)
scream/screamed/screaming(mom)
hate( the kid hates the subject, the mom hates the behavior)
'can't stand'( as in can't stand the kid)

Today a friend told me she said to her 7 yr old, after punishing her over school, 'What do I have to do to break you down??' I understand the mom's frustration, but the comment made me so very sad for her and the girl. What a sad way for the child to learn each day. Between that and what Jeannie's reviewer said, I decided I need to change things, too. I want learning to be positive for her. I want her to look back and think what a phat childhood she had, and what neat things she learned about. My heart really does burst with love over this girl. And- I don't want Jeannie doing this to her daughter, you know?

(Note to Amy when she reads this post- I will still occasionally want to be shot so I can't hs anymore! Lol!)

Deena

01-08-2009, 11:34 PM

Well, for my dd, it didn't work to just stick with the program. She was doing Saxon 7/6. She could do the work fine, but she hated the repetition! She built up a dread of math in general because she hated the math program we were using. By the time I came to the conclusion that we should do something else, she said she HATED math, couldn't remember multiplication, got frustrated easily....we had a long row to hoe to get to the point we are now. She did Teaching Textbooks Pre Algebra last year and liked it, which was a HUGE step for her! She finished the book by the end of the year, but said she didn't want to do TT again. Yikes! We had gotten Life of Fred Algebra I (he'd had some math troubles too) for ds, and as she was looking through it she asked if she could try it. She'd grab the book and read it all on her own, and ask dh questions about the problems when he got home! We decided to do the LoF Fractions and Decimals books first, though, since she still has a bit of math phobia, and is scared of Algebra. :( She loves them, and has gone quite far through them. I'm hoping they will help build her confidence so she'll be ready to tackle Algebra when she's done with them!!!

I feel that if I would have made her tough it out, and she was fussing about it daily, that she would totally hate math, and lose out on possibilities she is very interested in right now. I think Saxon is a great program, it was just not one that worked for her at all! Also, she LOVES Chemistry, and needs maths to be able to do that!

So, I'm VERY glad I didn't try to force her to do it my way! I mean, that's one reason I homeschool, so they get the education they NEED, not one that's forced on them even when it doesn't fit!

Just another angle to look at things!

Apryl H

01-09-2009, 06:22 AM

My oldest has A.D.O.S. =
Attention. Deficient....... OOOOH! Shiny!

Seriously, the boy has done this LIVE in front of us so many times....

:lol::lol:That's SO my DD Kelsie! We tell her that all the time. She'll even say..sorry I had an ADOS moment.

As for the memory issue, I suffer from it as well. My memory is horrible. However, I've found that it helps me to write EVERYTHING down. It seems as if I write it, then I can remember it better. That's even if I don't look at what I wrote again. Maybe having her write down the rules for fractions could help?

mamaof3peas

01-09-2009, 09:16 AM

i was reading the posts and something hit me, i think sometimes i forget she is starting from the ground up in math, and really doesnt know it already. I remember loving learning a new thing in school, and i hope i can help her love learning also. I also started to think about how I feel if im trying to learn how to do something and im just not getting it, im embarresed, im upset,mad, and i feel stupid, so i guess i need to remember that she is really not acting, sometimes she really doesnt understand, or really doesnt remember. just a thought! good ? though:)

TeacherMom

01-09-2009, 10:12 AM

Becky, I tried the same approach to writing out the reports as they are using with math, explaining why and how much I want from them, and when they had first heard of this etc.
Later I heard ds tell dh he was wrong when he got all upset at me for telling him he had to write it right then. HE admited he had forgotten I told him he would have to write it 3 months ago and now is sitting at the table finishing off two more paragraphs.
From these he will give a speach so I am proud of him!
He is a great writing person when he sits down to do it.
SO I am limiting time on screens and limiting late nights as much as possible to see if that helps too

AussieMum

01-09-2009, 10:22 AM

I think she may have more of a memory problem than a math problem now that I think of it.

What do you think?

She can learn a new concept no problem and do the page or pages required but two lessons later when those same problem are on her page as review she can't do them. She can't remember the steps or what to do at all.

She also is very forgetfull at other things.

I can not tell her (for example) to put her laundry away, get the broom for me and pick up her shoes. She will only do one thing and forget to do the rest.

If I am in the shower and someone calls she will not remember to tell me. She does this all the time. My dh will call, she will answer and then two hours later he calls back and she goes "oh I forgot he called a long time ago".

Okay the more I think about this the more I think I have discovered a whole new issue with her. Maybe, just maybe, it isn't math at all but something in the way of memory problems?

I'd like to know everyones take on this.

Hi Tiffany,

First, let me confess that I only read this far. I just wanted to say that fish oil improves memory. Our psych recommended 6grams per day, prefereably in a divided dose. I find this really makes a huge difference to my ds in terms of memory. I also let him make notes and stick them on the wall in front of him about things he forgets continuously (mostly math), and that helps too. I figure that every time he refers to it, it helps to know it a bit better.

My other thought about the memory is that it is also affected by anxiety. And your dd is at a hard age....at least mine is hard work, anyway. Moody, inconsistent and hard to live with.

So hang in there :love:

chicamarun

01-09-2009, 11:19 AM

What about adding in Life of Fred? I heard wonders about that!

Otherwise I'm in on the run and coke deal - just PM me directions and me and my goat are on our way!!

becky

01-09-2009, 11:48 AM

What about adding in Life of Fred? I heard wonders about that!

Otherwise I'm in on the run and coke deal - just PM me directions and me and my goat are on our way!!

You have a goat that drinks??:wink:

chicamarun

01-09-2009, 11:53 AM

Gotta a baby who is bottle fed - so SURE! LOL

I do have a sheep that likes beer - but he's about 250lbs+ so not sure I would bring him.

becky

01-09-2009, 11:56 AM

Gotta a baby who is bottle fed - so SURE! LOL

I do have a sheep that likes beer - but he's about 250lbs+ so not sure I would bring him.

Now- if only they could teach math!:lol:

FreeSpirit

01-09-2009, 12:38 PM

Sounds like she needs to go back in math and figure out what part she missed the boat on.

Some friends of ours were having a similar problem with their 7th grader in math. They tried EVERYTHING but he'd just get angry, stubborn, cry—everything when it came to math. He wouldn't even THINK, he'd just sit and stare at the page. When they asked him what he didn't understand he couldn't even say. They'd explain a concept and he'd listen, repeat it...then not be able to do it AFTER THEY JUST EXPLAINED IT.

Out of desperation they went back and started with 1st grade concepts. They seriously went back and gave him worksheets for every concept starting at the very beginning (they downloaded them free from the internet). He started with adding single numbers and went up through from there. Of course the first grade stuff was completed in one day, and same with second grade.

As they came up through the grades he got CONFIDENCE in what he already knew, and getting the problems correct relieved some of the pressure. As they came up through the grades he started balking at about 5th grade level. They reviewed the concepts he forgot and helped him get them down. They continued up until they hit 7th grade....and MIRACLE OF MIRACLES he breezed right through what he was having trouble with before...AND KEPT ON GOING!

He moved forward and by the end of the year was doing 10th grade math. No lie. Math is now his best subject.

We had to do that with reading with our 7-year old, start back at the beginning but now she's flown past the problems she was having and is now reading at grade level. She used to cry, balk and freak out at reading. Now her confidence is back!

Sometimes if kids miss the boat on one concept it keeps them from getting ALL the later concepts. And they don't necessarily know what it was they didn't fully get. The phenomenon is exactly what you just described. The solution is going back and picking up the missing data.

Good luck!

KrisRV

01-09-2009, 02:03 PM

I personally know that going from curriculum to curriculum can create gaps. Jeannie has yet to do much with measurement, because so far, the curr's we have used did little with it. Before she goes for testing, I have to try and squeeze in a measurement unit. Our state school website has sample test questions, and there were some on there I know Jeannie will not be able to answer. I promise you we did math just about every day of every school year since K. So, what happened??:?

Becky, sorry can't agree with you on this one, I think by holding the child to a curriculum they don't like and don't understand puts a bigger gap in there learning then changing. They are doing something they don't like and don't care about it so they wouldn't put there mind to it. I know I been there. I made my dd finish last year and what a big mistake....

MonkeyMamma

01-09-2009, 03:25 PM

Well I just got back in town. I took the girls to my parents house for the weekend. I think we can all use the break. We had a birthday lunch together and said goodbye until Sunday. They will get to have fun shopping, eating out and playing tons of games with grandma and I will get to have fun just being with my husband and friends.

I think a few days relaxation will do us some good.

We will get back to work on Monday and we will be doing math. We will see how it goes. I will be looking into Teaching Textbooks for sure. We have used MUS for three years now and maybe she needs a change.

Aussie Mum I am also going to look into the fish oil. Thanks for letting me know!

And I really wanna see that goat drink some rum!:eek::lol:;)

crazymama

01-09-2009, 03:46 PM

What about adding in Life of Fred? I heard wonders about that!

I haven't read everyting... you know all 60some posts, but wanted to offer some (((hugs))).

I don't have any real advice.. but I don't recommend LOF math, esp if she has an issue remembering things. We are not impressed with this book, and don't feel it has enough math in it. I could never imagine a child mastering math with it.

Deena

01-09-2009, 07:27 PM

I don't have any real advice.. but I don't recommend LOF math, esp if she has an issue remembering things. We are not impressed with this book, and don't feel it has enough math in it. I could never imagine a child mastering math with it.As much as I love you, Sommer, I have to disagree on this one. I checked out what ds and dd are doing, and it's right up there with two other math programs I looked into. Same concepts covered.

People often say that LoF isn't a complete program. I think the story part throws people off, and the humor makes them think it's not serious enough. It's DEFINITELY set up differently! But it DOES cover concepts well, and the kids I know that have used it are doing well, as are my two.

Emma's#1fan

01-09-2009, 07:44 PM

I keep reading more and more about LOF. I need to check it out!

momofafew

01-09-2009, 07:47 PM

Did I already respond to say that you may just need to switch math curriculums?

crazymama

01-09-2009, 08:37 PM

I don't know Deena, Garrett was learning litterally nothing from LOF fractions. There wasn't enough examples or work to make it make sense to him. We have switched to a basic 5th grade math book for the rest of this year and next year we will go with TT, as much as I hate to spend that much money. We still are using LOF, but esp if you have a student who isn't willing to, or doesn't want to put the effort into figuring it out they won't because the answers are right there on the exercise problems. I also have to sit right there during the bridges... or he is getting the answers from the back of the book... because I can not just cut the pages out of a hard bound book.. that is like murder to me.

Emma's#1fan

01-09-2009, 08:54 PM

I don't know Deena, Garrett was learning litterally nothing from LOF fractions.
This goes to show that what works for one person, might not work for another. Again, this is the beauty of homeschooling.

scottiegazelle

01-10-2009, 10:46 PM

I am a big math geek, loved it all through high school, but I really struggled when I got to Calculus. Took it in HS, couldn't remember how to do it (and was very glad for the scientific calculator, which allowed us to put the formulas in so I could pull them out for the test). Had to take the 2nd semester of Calc in college to get credit for the AP test (very strict college), struggled then. Moved on to multivariable calculus (that's calculus in more than 3 dimensions), and really struggled, but I needed it for my major.

My 2nd year of college, I started taking physics classes that actually USED the formulas. After two years of being unable to remember them, once I put them into use, I could remember and use them with ease. "Oh," I said, "NOW I see why that happens."

So my suggestion - put it to use. Let her do the baking, if she has to make something every day, since you said she was struggling with fractions. Relabel the measuring cups to 8/16 and 4/16s. Instead of 'simply' doubling or halving a recipe, have her up or down it by 1/3, 1/4. Get seriously convoluted, and tell her you want her to make 9/8s of the recipe (but she can use just one egg to one egg, LOL). Have her draw it out on paper. I was thinking last night, for some random reason, about multiplying fractions and how that looks on paper. Kind of like,

"If you multiply 3/4 by 1, then of course you get the same number; if you multiply it by 2, naturally you're going to get a bigger number. But if you multiply it by a number that is less than one, you're going to get a number in total that is smaller than one." Think it out yourself, and draw it out, and see if that helps her (let me know if you need elaboration). A lot of times, once we understand the process, we remember it. Now, of course, you have to repeat the process even after you get it to remember it, but at that point, you are remembering it while it makes sense, KWIM?

Just a thought,
SG the math geek

Emma's#1fan

01-10-2009, 10:50 PM

LOL!
I have to laugh when I read posts about some of you ladies doing Calculus. My sister made it to Calculus but I couldn't seem to get bast Algebra1.LOL

You ladies must have the mind of a genius!

Deena

01-11-2009, 12:18 AM

LOL!
I have to laugh when I read posts about some of you ladies doing Calculus. My sister made it to Calculus but I couldn't seem to get bast Algebra1.LOL

You ladies must have the mind of a genius!Me too, I'm with ya, Patty!!! I wonder what OUR minds are of???! :)

vantage

01-11-2009, 02:54 PM

Sounds like you have started to step back and reapproach.

Glad you are getting a couple of days to relax. sometimes that is a large part of the solution process.

I would use some of those accessments type tests for the grade you are in and the grade under it and see if there are some areas where you student hesitates, or has trouble. Then I would seek some materials or activities that could help shore up those areas.

Also remember that if you student was in a school at this age it would be Middle or Junior High school. These are the WORST years of school for almost everyone.

Most kids have a subject that causes both student and parents a great deal of grief during Jr. High.

Can your student count change well enough to work at McDonald's. If they can actually count change, they can be manager LOL. If so they will be able to move out and live with roomates someday, and .....its all up hill from here.

I guess what I am saying is that we don't all need a course in Differential Equations and that you have 5 or more years to get where you are going. Just make progress even if it is not the progress that your curriculum, or state calls for.

I have hear good things about Teaching Textbooks. I was math challenged at the same age as your dd and would have loved such a program. It is not cheap, but many recommend it. I plan to switch to it in the next year or two.

I wish you both great progres in this matter. I can see that similar situations are on the horizons for me as my oldest dd grows up.