This truly floored me...

[mamamuse]

I often read teacher's message boards, for new ideas to use in our homeschool. The "A to Z Teaching" link at the top of this board is awesome...you should check it out if you haven't.

Anyway, I was reading the fifth grade board over there because my oldest is heading into 5th, and that's uncharted territory for me! :lol: I opened the thread about what to do the first week, and read these comments:

~"I think that the first few weeks of school is all about procedures/routines/rules etc. I typically spend 6 weeks on this stuff."

~"After finishing my first year in 5th grade, I have learned that this following year I will spend MUCH more time on procedures, routines, and rules. I would not recommend jumping into the curriculum until you have thoroughly established these things."

~"I normally do procedures/routines with a few get to know you activities thrown in to break up the monotony. It's also key to model EVERYTHING. Don't take for granted that 5th graders know how to line up etc."

~"I usually spend the first week doing community building activities, getting to know you games, and we spend TONS of time on procedures and rules."

Now, I'm not knocking the teachers. I taught art in a private school for a year, and I understand how necessary it is to have good classroom management. However, I didn't realize it could take SIX weeks to instill this kind of stuff in a fifth grade classroom?! (Other teachers do chime in and say that they don't devote anywhere near that much time to rules, etc. before delving into the curriculum.)

I'm just sharing that because reading it has given me a whole different perspective on the efficiency of homeschooling....and on my state's mandatory rule that we devote 4.5 hours to academics each day. At home, we don't really have to waste any time on rules and procedures because the kids already know them.

[wolverine_jd94]

I used to be my son's aid when he was in public school (he's autistic and they had mainstreamed him) and I can say that I've seen these things quite often. It was a normal occurence to see a class walking back to their class, just to start walking back down the hall. All because someone had talked in line or... oh my stepped out of the line. Which of course caused them to be late getting to go out for reccess or go to lunch. I don't know how many times I saw kids just barely sitting down to eat their lunch and the bell would ring and they were told to throw their lunch away because lunch was now over.

[JLee74]

I can say I am floored right along with you. I mean I understand needing to make things clear but geeze thats nuts.

[Carla W.]

Sad!

[JenniferErix]

SIX WEEKS to learn how to stand in line?
Oh! They will never get my kids....
My kids will consider hiring their kids one day, maybe.... Because there is no way those guys could be leaders...

[MonkeyMamma]

SIX WEEKS to learn how to stand in line?
Oh! They will never get my kids....
My kids will consider hiring their kids one day, maybe.... Because there is no way those guys could be leaders...


:lol::lol::lol:

[Jackie]

But necessary! If you are "mean" in the beginning, you can back off and be "nicer" once they know you mean business. But if you start "nice" and it doesn't work, it's almost impossible to tighten the reigns.

I agree that by 5th grade the kids should have the routine established, but also by 5th grade they're becoming more defiant.

[kyzg]

Now, now, ladies! Don't be so harsh! Think of all the wonderfully perfect little cogs-in-the-machine they are producing! And think of the wonderful self-esteem building experienced by the smug little goodie-two-shoes who relish being the teacher's pet by pointing out the others who are not conforming as they should!

God HELP America!

[TeacherMom]

Wow, I never realised that either! IN fifth grade we had a new room ( why do I remember all this in detail? I have no idea!) We were in a big room split by those moveable bendable walls and three classes were in the same big space. Mr Truscott was my teacher and I remember he was big on drawing and art.
lol!
I can visualise my picture on the wall, is that weird? But, I do not recall any rules or regulations other than if one student was waiting to talk to the teacher at his desk, you waited quietly while he helped the first student.

[becky]

But necessary! If you are "mean" in the beginning, you can back off and be "nicer" once they know you mean business. But if you start "nice" and it doesn't work, it's almost impossible to tighten the reigns.

I agree that by 5th grade the kids should have the routine established, but also by 5th grade they're becoming more defiant.

The best teachers Kevin had were the ones who were clear and stood by their rules. Their classrooms were the quietest and they were the friendliest teachers on the teams each year.

[becky]

I often read teacher's message boards, for new ideas to use in our homeschool. The "A to Z Teaching" link at the top of this board is awesome...you should check it out if you haven't.

Anyway, I was reading the fifth grade board over there because my oldest is heading into 5th, and that's uncharted territory for me! :lol: I opened the thread about what to do the first week, and read these comments:

~"I think that the first few weeks of school is all about procedures/routines/rules etc. I typically spend 6 weeks on this stuff."

~"After finishing my first year in 5th grade, I have learned that this following year I will spend MUCH more time on procedures, routines, and rules. I would not recommend jumping into the curriculum until you have thoroughly established these things."

~"I normally do procedures/routines with a few get to know you activities thrown in to break up the monotony. It's also key to model EVERYTHING. Don't take for granted that 5th graders know how to line up etc."

~"I usually spend the first week doing community building activities, getting to know you games, and we spend TONS of time on procedures and rules."

Now, I'm not knocking the teachers. I taught art in a private school for a year, and I understand how necessary it is to have good classroom management. However, I didn't realize it could take SIX weeks to instill this kind of stuff in a fifth grade classroom?! (Other teachers do chime in and say that they don't devote anywhere near that much time to rules, etc. before delving into the curriculum.)

I'm just sharing that because reading it has given me a whole different perspective on the efficiency of homeschooling....and on my state's mandatory rule that we devote 4.5 hours to academics each day. At home, we don't really have to waste any time on rules and procedures because the kids already know them.

Go back and get them to explain why it takes so long to get settled. I go over there all the time for advice, and they nursed me through all three years so far. They are all nice ladies..and men.. over there.

I personally think it's like comparing apples to oranges here. They must have cooperation in a school, and if you have just one defiant kid, that can mess a class up.
A defiant kid can also mess up a home school as well, though!:wink:

[becky]

Now, now, ladies! Don't be so harsh! Think of all the wonderfully perfect little cogs-in-the-machine they are producing! And think of the wonderful self-esteem building experienced by the smug little goodie-two-shoes who relish being the teacher's pet by pointing out the others who are not conforming as they should!

God HELP America!

Okay- I've been cheated.:evil:

I once had a teacher call me a tattletale, when I told her something someone was doing. And to think I was trying to help her out! No esteem building for me!

[Claraskids]

When I was a classroom teacher, I almost always taught a combined 1st/2nd grade class. I never spent more than a week on procedures/etc for a couple of reasons.
1) My 2nd graders had already been with me for a year and knew the rules. They quickly taught the first graders. (Hmmm, almost like a family would?)
2)If I didn't get started quickly into academics, the kids were almost shocked when the "real" work began. Then it was like starting at square one again.
3)Building community was a year-long event, not something just to be accomplished in September.
As for making everyone start over if the line wasn't straight or someone talked - forget about it. I needed my lunch break as much as they did! :)

[Jackie]

I personally think it's like comparing apples to oranges here. They must have cooperation in a school, and if you have just one defiant kid, that can mess a class up.
A defiant kid can also mess up a home school as well, though!:wink:

I think you're right. It's the nature of the beast, and doesn't reflect on the teachers.

It should also free us from worrying about how much we actually acomplish. Since we DON'T spend 5-6 weeks setting down the rules, dealing with behavior, etc., we shouldn't get all worried about how "little" time we spend actually teaching. Our kids accomplish more learning in less time; we do NOT have to fill every breathing second with "quality academics" because of what we think is/isn't being done in a "real" school.

[seekingmyLord]

:o Well, the only thing that came to mind was this saying I found some time ago. It just always seems to sum it all up for me:

Your system is perfectly designed to yield the results you are getting.

[Jackie]

Your system is perfectly designed to yield the results you are getting.

LOL!!!

[Ava Rose]

I am sure it is difficult to set up procedures and routines for a bunch of 5th graders. Fifth graders are not a flexible or easily adaptable as kids in younger grades. I think 6 weeks is a bit long however. I am not sure what to think.....other than homeschooling I have only taught VBS, AWANA and Sunday School. Establishing a routine didn't seem to take that long and I only had the kids an hour a week. But then again...an hour a week is cake compared to 6 hours a day. Maybe it does take that long depending on the type of class you have. I don't agree with focusing ONLY on routine and not doing any real work though.

[DizneeTeachR]

When I was a classroom teacher, I almost always taught a combined 1st/2nd grade class. I never spent more than a week on procedures/etc for a couple of reasons.
1) My 2nd graders had already been with me for a year and knew the rules. They quickly taught the first graders. (Hmmm, almost like a family would?)
2)If I didn't get started quickly into academics, the kids were almost shocked when the "real" work began. Then it was like starting at square one again.
3)Building community was a year-long event, not something just to be accomplished in September.
As for making everyone start over if the line wasn't straight or someone talked - forget about it. I needed my lunch break as much as they did! :)

OMGosh...I so agree with you. When I taught 1st I remember spending time reminding them where stuff was & going over rules & what not. But I don't remember it being over a weeks. I mean they were just as excited to be back & see their friends. I would say after the first couple of days it was just a reminder (pretty much like every day for the first little while) of what is expected & what not. Of course I was a lot more leinant with mine than the other teacher. I didn't mind a dull roar in the classroom as long as their work was getting done.

[Jackie]

I had a principal who wanted us to all post our Classroom Rules where everyone could see them. I REALLY didn't like that; in my mind, the kids should KNOW that they're not alowed to hit, etc. So I wrote them as to what I expected them TO DO, not what I DIDN'T want them doing! "Listen when someone is talking" "Show respect to everyone" "Do your best work". But I also only had about five kids, because it was a special needs class. I didn't have the behavior problems the "regular" teachers had.

[DizneeTeachR]

I had a principal who wanted us to all post our Classroom Rules where everyone could see them. I REALLY didn't like that; in my mind, the kids should KNOW that they're not alowed to hit, etc. So I wrote them as to what I expected them TO DO, not what I DIDN'T want them doing! "Listen when someone is talking" "Show respect to everyone" "Do your best work". But I also only had about five kids, because it was a special needs class. I didn't have the behavior problems the "regular" teachers had.

I don't think I had my posted any where. I didn't shove any rules down their throat either. I asked on the first day what do you think are some rules & things we need to know about behaving in school. I had more rules from the kids than I ever imagined. It was a great way to build trust & getting to know each other. I think every child gave me an answer...about 20 or so rules.

[TeacherMom]

okay I knwo what bothered me about it, why base a whole month, why not be consistant through out the year?

[mamamuse]

Ok, I'm thinking maybe I didn't state clearly enough that I had NO problem with teachers doing this. :) I know it's necessary for classroom management, having BTDT myself teaching grades K-8th art each week.

I was not meaning any insult to the teachers over there AT ALL!

The point that I was trying to make by sharing that is that I think it clearly illustrates how we, as homeschoolers, do not need to fret over whether we are doing enough with our kids each day. Because we don't have to spend such a huge chunk of time on rules, procedures, lining up, it means that we have more time to teach and our kids have more time to learn. (I know that anyone who has HS'd for any length of time knows that, but many of us worry over it anyway.)

But you know, the flip side to that is that I'll probably be whining a month from now about how teaching art to the 100 or so kids at our homeschooling group is difficult precisely because most of these kids have NOT had to learn much related to classroom management. :lol:

I sat in on the art and music classes last year, and was kind of appalled at how many kids acted up, talked over the teacher, didn't listen, walked around the classroom, etc. I'm sure I'll begin every class with a rules review for the first month, at least, and need to come up with some type of award incentive for good behavior.

[JenniferErix]

I think this would not be an issue if they would return the powers of control back to the teachers.

Do not disrupt my class or I will smack your hand with a ruler! Ha!

Not that that would ever happen again, but just making a point that poor teachers no longer are allowed to control their students, for fear of being fired or sued.

I don't see how they manage at all, considering that as students get older, they begin to realize that teachers have little power.

[Mrs. Mommy]

I think this would not be an issue if they would return the powers of control back to the teachers.

Do not disrupt my class or I will smack your hand with a ruler! Ha!

Not that that would ever happen again, but just making a point that poor teachers no longer are allowed to control their students, for fear of being fired or sued.

I don't see how they manage at all, considering that as students get older, they begin to realize that teachers have little power.

I agree wholeheartedly.

[daddys3chicks]

It is interesting that it takes such a huge chunk of time to get everyone ont he same page. Especially at the 5th grade level.

[KrisRV]

I have to agree with Jen, turn the power back to the teachers. When I worked in PS as a aid the you could tell which teachers had the power and which one didn't.
No wonder the kids are learning anything now days.

[becky]

Ok, I'm thinking maybe I didn't state clearly enough that I had NO problem with teachers doing this. :) I know it's necessary for classroom management, having BTDT myself teaching grades K-8th art each week.

I was not meaning any insult to the teachers over there AT ALL!

The point that I was trying to make by sharing that is that I think it clearly illustrates how we, as homeschoolers, do not need to fret over whether we are doing enough with our kids each day. Because we don't have to spend such a huge chunk of time on rules, procedures, lining up, it means that we have more time to teach and our kids have more time to learn. (I know that anyone who has HS'd for any length of time knows that, but many of us worry over it anyway.)

But you know, the flip side to that is that I'll probably be whining a month from now about how teaching art to the 100 or so kids at our homeschooling group is difficult precisely because most of these kids have NOT had to learn much related to classroom management. :lol:

I sat in on the art and music classes last year, and was kind of appalled at how many kids acted up, talked over the teacher, didn't listen, walked around the classroom, etc. I'm sure I'll begin every class with a rules review for the first month, at least, and need to come up with some type of award incentive for good behavior.

I forget where I saw it, but someone made a graphic that got colored in each day there was good behavior. If it got completely colored in, the kids got whatever it was a picture of. I wish I could remember! I think it was an ice cream deseert of some kind, but I don't know for sure..

[AussieMum]

:o Well, the only thing that came to mind was this saying I found some time ago. It just always seems to sum it all up for me:

Your system is perfectly designed to yield the results you are getting.

I love that quote - can I use it too;)

[2CalvertKids]

I can SOOOO do better than that. Where I live, the kids do not learn basic writing (i.e. grammar, punctuation, capital letters, and the like) until 5th grade. Oh yea, you read that right. AND, our state is so focused on the stupid end of the year test that they only teach from August until December. After Christmas, all they do is drill the kids on the stuff that will be on the test! :(

[JenniferErix]

I have two relatives who are in summer school.
They are not in high school, nor are they in Junior High school....
One is 1st Grade...
The Other is Kindergarten..

Really?
Summer School for Kindergarten?

Who was teaching THAT class?

[seekingmyLord]

I love that quote - can I use it too;)

Of course! It is one of my favorites. It helps me remember that if I am not getting the results I wanted then I need to change the way I am doing things.

I found it--well, I don't remember where, possibly a blog somewhere on homeschooling vs. public school, so I don't know to whom to give the credit. This concept is used in the business world, mostly by consultants, I believe, but it certain fits so many other areas, doesn't it? In fact if you google one variation of it you will see it is used in evaluating churches, also: Your system is perfectly designed to produce the result you're getting.

[Jackie]

I can SOOOO do better than that. Where I live, the kids do not learn basic writing (i.e. grammar, punctuation, capital letters, and the like) until 5th grade. Oh yea, you read that right. AND, our state is so focused on the stupid end of the year test that they only teach from August until December. After Christmas, all they do is drill the kids on the stuff that will be on the test! :(

You don't live in Ohio! They have to pass the Proficiency Test in fourth grade, and there's a writing component to it. But yes, they sure DO "teach to the test"!

[Jackie]

I have two relatives who are in summer school.
They are not in high school, nor are they in Junior High school....
One is 1st Grade...
The Other is Kindergarten..

Really?
Summer School for Kindergarten?

Who was teaching THAT class?

Jen, one of most enjoyable summers was when I CHOSE to go to Summer School. They had not only "typical" summer school stuff, but also what we would consider "enrichment" courses. I took two...creative writing, and reading. They were two weeks long for about 1.5 hours each, and I loved them both! I was in 4th grade at the time.

But yes, traditional summer school at that age is ridiculous!

[JenniferErix]

Down here, Summer school was only for failures.
Of course being imperfect, I went twice!hahahah!

Anyway, it was usually highschool level and some junior high, but elementary school was unheard of til just recently.

So, maybe it is a perspective, or experience thing, but it floored me.. not that one was in kindergarten summer school... but that so many needed it, that they actually HAD a kindergarten summer school to begin with.

But, down here (And please live in our shoes before you get mad at me for saying so) we really have a ton of illegal emigrants and not enough federal money to pay for more teachers, and therefore the poor teachers and schools get over-run, with no money to cover the new kids, because they are not counted in the census. And of course No child left behind. In fact if you lived in SW Houston, you can walk into many elementary schools and English really is a second language to nearly everyone, there.

Yet, in the school districts textbooks list (They have copies in the public library) are side-by-side spanish versions of the assigned textbooks.... So these kids get their legs chopped off before they get in the door, never really being taught English. Used to be that a person was taught nothing but English until they could understand enough to return to regular classes, and those kids usually kicked some serious academic booty, remember?

Ok, I am babbling, sorry....

My point is to say that I think the numbers here are skewed, meaning it is not that we have worse teachers than we used to have, since elementary summer school is new here....

More that it is the school system trying to help up those who English is a second language.

(And I have three members of my family who are recent LEGAL emigrants, so yes I have an attitude, but only because we followed the rules and we think they rules need to be streamlined and made free if not cheaper to get in...)

[RoadRunner]

Emigrants leave the country.
Immigrants enter the country.

:)

[JenniferErix]

Yes dear, thank you.

[RoadRunner]

I agree with making it cheaper to get in. Man, I just had to pay 520$ just for the medical exam, and that was without the x-ray since I am pregnant. On top of that you have to pay about the same amount to the embassy (if not more, I don't recall) to get the actual papers. And then we need the US passport for the new baby. It all adds up, no wonder people immigrate illegally.

[JenniferErix]

Exactly! And the problem with it is people not getting counted, and therefore federal dollars do not get sent to the right areas for stuff like schools and hospitals and social services.

[TeacherMom]

Hey I wondered hwo that worked.
Btw here Summer school is just anothe rword for "Put my kid in something so I can go work"
I know a few parents who put thier kids in summer school this year because they could not find a sitter. But then our summer schools are set up much more like a day care anyway with the meals the games, the craft lessons, whatever class you are in, math, science etc, its like Math club or whatever.

[Jackie]

Now our summer schools are make-up for what you didn't pass. I'm not sure they even have them outside of the high school. Kids are not permitted to retake a class, except in Summer School or some silly invention called "Credit Recovery". CR is done individually on the computer. (There's a CR teacher who supervises this!) Trouble is, you can take the (same) multiple choice test as many times as you want until you pass. The kids never learn the stuff, they just learn which answer is WRONG, and eventually figure out what's left.

[Mrs. Mommy]

Here we have "extended school year" for the kids that need extra help in math, reading, LA, and also for OT. Both of my kids did extended school year for what it was worth as it was about an hour and a half two days a week. DS had it last summer for OT only and he went but I am not sure what he really got out of it.

[WIMom]

Wow...six weeks does seem like a long time just on routines and procedures.

About public summer school....around here it is enrichment for elementary through middle school. I didn't send my son to the summer school class before kindergarten (getting ready for kindergarten class). I think my son's kindergarten teacher thought I was quite crazy for not having my son attend the summer school class and not even having him attend a full year of preschool before he entered the real kindergarten (although I was informed it is the new first grade).
Summer school for high school is for students who failed classes, I believe.

[cincy1]

Public school has to be about the business of training the masses to be compliant or nothing gets done. It's a group thing, much different from one student working at his own pace.

BTW, many of the textbooks we homeschoolers use contain alot of review in the beginning, too. Maybe not 6 weeks worth????:eek:

[Jackie]

BTW, many of the textbooks we homeschoolers use contain alot of review in the beginning, too. Maybe not 6 weeks worth????:eek:

Welcome, Cincy! I think this is the first I've "met" you; we've had so many new people lately!

I learned a secret with the review. I switched my oldest from Horizons math to Saxon in 4th grade. We started the year at the beginning of the book, and she kept complaining, "WHY do I have to do this? I already KNOW it!!!" So I gave her the first test, and she got 100%. The next day, I gave her the second test and again she did really well. So each day I gave her the next test. When her grades suddenly dropped from the 90's to the 70's, I knew where she needed to start. Saxon is designed for schools, where everyone needs to be on the same page and the review is necessary for that. But for US, it's not.